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Christians have to face up to the fact that the whole Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit-thing is not new or original, as if only it exists because it had been revealed to man for the first time through the power of the Holy Spirit and all that nonsense. There were "god trinities" long before the Christian trinity came onto the scene, most notably in the Hindu religion where various trinities of gods reigned centuries before Christianity came onto the scene, The most well known Hindu Trinity (trimurti) is Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva as Judge.
It's a "which came first, the chicken or the egg"? In this case the chicken was Hinduism and the trinity-egg which came from the chicken is Christianity. Put another way, Christian churchmen stole the concept of the trinity from Hinduism, which had been around a thousand years before. Further, the trinity did not become church doctrine until the Council of Constantinople in 360 AD and its final form crafted in 381 AD. Wiki.
The trinity is from Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Caanan and other Pagan places. It was not in Judaism or early church. Think God is 3 people? Who conceived Jesus, the Father or the Holy Ghost?
The word 'trinity', from the Latin 'trinitas' simply refers to a group of three closely related persons or things. While the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, the concept that God is a Triune Being certainly is. For instance, John 1:1 shows two Persons of the Trinity; the Father, and the Word which is the pre-incarnate Jesus. The Holy Spirit is called God in Acts 5:3-4. The term 'Trinity' simply means that the three Persons; the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit comprise one God.
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are each clearly called God. The three are distinct Persons within the Trinity. The fact that the pre-incarnate Word is distinct from the Father is clear in John 1:1, while the fact that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father is clear in Romans 8:26-27 where it is said that the Father (He) knows the mind of the Spirit, and also that the Spirit intercedes for the saints. Two things are stated here. That the Holy Spirit has a mind which the Father knows, and that the Holy Spirit intercedes for the saints. The fact that the Holy Spirit is said to have a mind which the Father knows establishes His Personhood and that He is distinct from the Father. He intercedes with the Father on behalf of the Saints. That the Holy Spirit is distinct from the pre-incarnate Word (Jesus in His humanity) is made clear in John 15:26 and 16:13-15.
Jesus is the Person of the Trinity that did the actual work of creation as is stated in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:10. Note also that in Hebrews 1:5-13 God the Father is addressing the Son and calling Him God, and stating that it is the Son who laid the foundation of the earth, and that the heavens are the works of His (the Son's) hands. Hebrews 1:10-12 is quoting Psalm 102:25-27 in which the Psalmist is praising God. The writer of Hebrews in quoting those verses has the Father speaking those words to the Son, which means that the writer of Hebrews understood Jesus to be God.
As for Exodus 33:20 ''No man can see Me (God) and live,'' God told Moses that he couldn't see His face, but He did allow Moses to in some sense experience His glory by having Moses stand in the cleft of a rock, and covering him as He passed by.
However, God did also appear in human form in the Old Testament, such as when He appeared to Abraham as in Genesis 18. Three 'men' came to Abraham. Two of them were angels, but one of them was God Himself in human form. Since no man has seen the Father, this could only have been a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus.
The fact that the one true God exists as three 'Persons' is brought out by comparing all the pertinent passages in which while God is said to be one, yet the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all said to be God. The technical term 'Trinity' which was eventually coined, simply recognizes this fact.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The podcast is still available to watch through Nov. 7th, but apparently you have to give your name and email to receive information on how to access it, which I don't want to do. But I think I'll order the book.
But yes, perichoresis, the divine dance is an ancient doctrine which views the Trinity as the mutual interpenetration or indwelling of each of the three Persons of the Trinity with each other to the extent that the three Persons do not have separate existence, but are one Being. And if you stop and think about it, the fact that God is love means that God has had to have something to love. Before anything was created, there was only God, and so each Person of the Trinity directed His love toward the other two Persons of the Godhead.
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Originally Posted by Daingerfield
Trinity is an ancient pagan concept perpetuated by greek philosophers in the 300+ ad starting with Nicea council of RCC. It wrongly divides the word of truth, & creates confusion.
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Originally Posted by Daingerfield
If the 3 persons are not separate, then they no longer conform to the definition of the Trinity which isn't real anyway.
The Trinitarian view did not begin with the council of Nicea which was held in A.D. 325 for the purpose of settling a dispute between the Arians and the Trinitarians. The council of Nicea simply formalized the doctrine of the Trinity, a view which had long before been held in the church along with other views.
Tertullian (A.D. c. 160 – c. 225) held to the view of God as a Triunity. And he used the term 'trinitas' in that regard. In his polemic Against Praxeas, he wrote,
CHAPTER 12 -- OTHER QUOTATIONS FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE ADDUCED IN PROOF OF THE PLURALITY OF PERSONS IN THE GODHEAD.
''If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness;" whereas He ought to have said, "Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness," as being a unique and singular Being?''
''Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, "Let us make;" and, "in our image;" and, "become as one of us."
'' But although I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons), yet I am bound to acknowledge, from the necessity of the case, that He who issues a command is different from Him who executes it. For, indeed, He would not be issuing a command if He were all the while doing the work Himself, while ordering it to be done by the second. But still He did issue the command, although He would not have intended to command Himself if He were only one; or else He must have worked without any command, because He would not have waited to command Himself. ''
Tertullian took his view of the plurality and tri-unity of God from the Scriptures.
I've shown from Scripture that there are three 'Persons' who are clearly identified as God and that they are distinct from each other. Yet there is only one true God. The concept of the Trinity is clearly taught in the Scriptures though the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible. They are three in 'Person' but one in essence.
As Lewis Sperry Chafer stated;
The term personality as applied to God is not to be understood or taken in its strict philosophical sense, in which case wholly distinct beings are indicated. God is one Being, but He is more than one Being in three relations. Well-defined acts which are personal in character are ascribed to each Person of the Three. These acts unequivocally establish personality. Language labors under difficulties at this point. The Persons are not separate, but distinct. The Trinity is composed of three united Persons without separate existence---so completely united as to form One God. The divine nature subsists in three distinctions---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Systematic Theology, Vol. 1, p. 276.
Since the Bible states that there is but one true God, and yet identifies three 'Persons' as God, that is the concept of the Trinity, whether you can or are willing to accept that or not. It is because of the fact that the Bible identifies three 'Persons' as God while stating that there is only one God that the church struggled to understand the relationship between God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And that is why attempts to understand this relationship resulted in various views arising in the church such as Dynamic Monarchianism, Modal Monarchianism, Tritheism, and the Trinity. The first three views are in opposition not only to each other, but to the view of the Trinity. Of these views, only the concept of the Trinity, the tri-unity of God, one God in three 'Persons,' accurately reflects what the Bible teaches.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-08-2016 at 08:40 PM..
If he was not a mortal man, rather divine, then he could not die. God cannot die.
He was a man and "he" not a nature or a body, died.
Man is a soul. A person does not have a soul, they are a soul. Every person (soul) is connected to a body and a spirit. Bodies are not immortal, they are mortal, because bodies are created (conception and birth) and destroyed (1st. death and decay). Souls live on unto God when the body dies, but are mortal and will die in in the lake of fire - (2nd. death), unless they receive eternal life (mortal puts on immortality) from Christ. Life comes from God at birth and returns to God at physical death but life will return at the resurrection and rejoin a new body of flesh for judgement day. Jesus was born, lived, and died just like you will. He was resurrected 3 days later, but you will have to wait until the 7th trump. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. That means that God lived in Jesus. God did not BECOME a man, but he CAME INTO a man and lived through a man. Jesus was conceived and born of the Holy Ghost (his Father) and proceeded forth from God and pre-existed with God before the foundation of the world. That is why he is Divine. Jesus was the son of man according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God according to the spirit (Rom. 1: 3-4) He is the express image of the invisible God. When you see Jesus you see the Father. Mankind has worshiped graven images of paint, wood, stone, pottery, ect. Idols that did not speak, move, or have life in them but yet they represented mankind's false deity, or demons. God made a living man in his image, gave him power and authority and dominion. Called him Adam, but Adam sinned and brought death to himself and his seed. God made a 2nd Adam in his Image. His name was Jesus and he overcame sin and conquered death to give us eternal life. Follow him, and you will walk with God.
Last edited by mensaguy; 11-09-2016 at 03:56 AM..
Reason: added closing quote
If he was not a mortal man, rather divine, then he could not die. God cannot die.
He was a man and "he" not a nature or a body, died.
Man is a soul. A person does not have a soul, they are a soul. Every person (soul) is connected to a body and a spirit. Bodies are not immortal, they are mortal, because bodies are created (conception and birth) and destroyed (1st. death and decay). Souls live on unto God when the body dies, but are mortal and will die in in the lake of fire - (2nd. death), unless they receive eternal life (mortal puts on immortality) from Christ. Life comes from God at birth and returns to God at physical death but life will return at the resurrection and rejoin a new body of flesh for judgement day. Jesus was born, lived, and died just like you will. He was resurrected 3 days later, but you will have to wait until the 7th trump. Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. That means that God lived in Jesus. God did not BECOME a man, but he CAME INTO a man and lived through a man. Jesus was conceived and born of the Holy Ghost (his Father) and proceeded forth from God and pre-existed with God before the foundation of the world. That is why he is Divine. Jesus was the son of man according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God according to the spirit (Rom. 1: 3-4) He is the express image of the invisible God. When you see Jesus you see the Father. Mankind has worshiped graven images of paint, wood, stone, pottery, ect. Idols that did not speak, move, or have life in them but yet they represented mankind's false deity, or demons. God made a living man in his image, gave him power and authority and dominion. Called him Adam, but Adam sinned and brought death to himself and his seed. God made a 2nd Adam in his Image. His name was Jesus and he overcame sin and conquered death to give us eternal life. Follow him, and you will walk with God.
What of the folks in the Tanakh that "walked with G-d?...
Last edited by mensaguy; 11-09-2016 at 03:57 AM..
Reason: Fixed quote post quote
The Trinitarian view did not begin with the council of Nicea which was held in A.D. 325 for the purpose of settling a dispute between the Arians and the Trinitarians. The council of Nicea simply formalized the doctrine of the Trinity, a view which had long before been held in the church along with other views.
Tertullian (A.D. c. 160 – c. 225) held to the view of God as a Triunity. And he used the term 'trinitas' in that regard. In his polemic Against Praxeas, he wrote,
CHAPTER 12 -- OTHER QUOTATIONS FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE ADDUCED IN PROOF OF THE PLURALITY OF PERSONS IN THE GODHEAD.
''If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness;" whereas He ought to have said, "Let me make man in my own image, and after my own likeness," as being a unique and singular Being?''
''Or was it because He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account? Nay, it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase, "Let us make;" and, "in our image;" and, "become as one of us."
'' But although I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons), yet I am bound to acknowledge, from the necessity of the case, that He who issues a command is different from Him who executes it. For, indeed, He would not be issuing a command if He were all the while doing the work Himself, while ordering it to be done by the second. But still He did issue the command, although He would not have intended to command Himself if He were only one; or else He must have worked without any command, because He would not have waited to command Himself. ''
Tertullian took his view of the plurality and tri-unity of God from the Scriptures.
I've shown from Scripture that there are three 'Persons' who are clearly identified as God and that they are distinct from each other. Yet there is only one true God. The concept of the Trinity is clearly taught in the Scriptures though the word 'Trinity' is not found in the Bible. They are three in 'Person' but one in essence.
As Lewis Sperry Chafer stated;
The term personality as applied to God is not to be understood or taken in its strict philosophical sense, in which case wholly distinct beings are indicated. God is one Being, but He is more than one Being in three relations. Well-defined acts which are personal in character are ascribed to each Person of the Three. These acts unequivocally establish personality. Language labors under difficulties at this point. The Persons are not separate, but distinct. The Trinity is composed of three united Persons without separate existence---so completely united as to form One God. The divine nature subsists in three distinctions---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Systematic Theology, Vol. 1, p. 276.
Since the Bible states that there is but one true God, and yet identifies three 'Persons' as God, that is the concept of the Trinity, whether you can or are willing to accept that or not. It is because of the fact that the Bible identifies three 'Persons' as God while stating that there is only one God that the church struggled to understand the relationship between God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. And that is why attempts to understand this relationship resulted in various views arising in the church such as Dynamic Monarchianism, Modal Monarchianism, Tritheism, and the Trinity. The first three views are in opposition not only to each other, but to the view of the Trinity. Of these views, only the concept of the Trinity, the tri-unity of God, one God in three 'Persons,' accurately reflects what the Bible teaches.
I assume you are Catholic since you are well versed in RCC doctrine and history. You are correct about the formation of Trinitarian theology beginning with Tertullion between AD 160 - AD 225 and at Nicea 325 AD Father and Son became equal. In Constantinople AD 381 the Holy Ghost was given recognition of Divinity. The next time these Council guys got together they decided Mary was Mother of God and on and on it goes. For hundreds of years the RCC doctrine has evolved. I already knew that, but just decided to keep it short. God didn't put all that in the Bible so I didn't realize it was that important. I am referring to the writings of the church fathers that Jesus said don't call father.
So as God has said, "Come, let us reason together....". The Holy Ghost conceived Jesus Christ. God is Spirit. That is WHAT he is.....GOD is The Father. That is WHO he is. Your father conceived you. He is a man. That is WHAT he is. He is a father. That is WHO he is. Is your father and the man 2 different people. Is The Father and the Holy Ghost 2 different people. Is The Father and The Son the same person. The Son proceeded out of the Father. Same Spirit (One) but separate identity.
I assume you are Catholic since you are well versed in RCC doctrine and history. You are correct about the formation of Trinitarian theology beginning with Tertullion between AD 160 - AD 225 and at Nicea 325 AD Father and Son became equal. In Constantinople AD 381 the Holy Ghost was given recognition of Divinity. The next time these Council guys got together they decided Mary was Mother of God and on and on it goes. For hundreds of years the RCC doctrine has evolved. I already knew that, but just decided to keep it short. God didn't put all that in the Bible so I didn't realize it was that important. I am referring to the writings of the church fathers that Jesus said don't call father.
So as God has said, "Come, let us reason together....". The Holy Ghost conceived Jesus Christ. God is Spirit. That is WHAT he is.....GOD is The Father. That is WHO he is. Your father conceived you. He is a man. That is WHAT he is. He is a father. That is WHO he is. Is your father and the man 2 different people. Is The Father and the Holy Ghost 2 different people. Is The Father and The Son the same person. The Son proceeded out of the Father. Same Spirit (One) but separate identity.
No, I'm not Catholic.
The three 'Persons' of the Trinity have always been co-equal and co-eternal in terms of their essence or nature. There is however an authority structure within the Trinity.
The Bible was written long before there were any church councils to make any decisions about anything. Over the years, centuries even, the understanding concerning the fact that the Bible stated both that there is only one God, but nevertheless stated that not only is the Father God, but also that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God developed. That developing understanding resulted, as already stated, in various views of the nature of God such as Dynamic Monarchianism, Modal Monarchianism, Tritheism, and the Trinity.
Tritheism is the belief that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct Gods. But since the Bible states that there is only one true God while at the same time identifying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, that invalidates the view of Tritheism, as does the fact that all three 'Persons' of the Trinity are stated in the Bible to indwell the believer.
Modalism or Sabellianism is the view that God simply reveals Himself in three different successive roles and that therefore God doesn't exist as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit at the same time. But since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all present at the same time at Jesus' baptism that rules out the concept of Modalism, as does as stated above, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are shown in Scripture to indwell the believer.
The Trinitarian view best recognizes and fits with the fact that the Bible states that there is one God, but also identifies Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God along with the Father.
The writer of Hebrews understood that Jesus is not only God, but that He is the 'Person' of the Trinity who did the actual act of creation. In Hebrews 1:10-12, the writer of Hebrews quotes Psalm 102:25-27 which refers to God and recognizes Him as the creator of the heavens and earth. But the writer of Hebrews in quoting Psalm 102:25-27 has the Father speaking what is stated in Psalm 102:25-27 to the Son. He has God the Father saying to the Son, ''You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain; and they all will become old like a garment. And like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end. Before that, in verse 8, God the Father calls the Son God and tells Him that His throne is forever and ever.
And so, the writer of Hebrews shows two 'Persons' of the Trinity, with the Father speaking to the Son.
Regarding the Holy Spirit, He is called God in Acts 5:3-4, and shown to be distinct from the Father and from the Son in passages such as John 14:16-17 and 16:12-15.
The fact that the Holy Spirit is a 'Person' and not merely a force is clearly demonstrated in Romans 8:27 in which Paul writes that the Holy Spirit has a mind which the Father knows, and also that the Spirit intercedes for the saints. A force cannot intercede, but a 'Person' can.
With reference to Romans 8:27, Dr. John A. Witmer writes,
The One who searches our hearts is God (1 Sam. 16:7; Heb. 4:13), and He knows (oiden, ''knows perceptively or intuitively'') the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes (entynchanei; cf. Rom. 8:26) for the saints in accordance with God's will. Even though the Spirit's words are not expressed, the Father knows what the Spirit is thinking. This is an interesting statement about the Father's omniscience and the intimacy within the Trinity. The Lord Jesus continually intercedes for believers in God's presence (v.34; Heb. 7:25) and the Holy Spirit also intercedes on their behalf! Though believers are ignorant of what to pray for and how to voice those requests, the Spirit voices their requests for them.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 473.
The Trinitarian view best describes the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God in three 'Persons.'
Yes, that way we can make Book into Word much more easily, yes? Instead of seeing that the Three are all Word.
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.
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