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I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not convinced that is true. That's not to say I believe in a literal Trinity, but rather that the concept of a Trinity may convey some symbolic truth about God.
Well, your other post below about symbolism in numbers tells quite a bit of truth: "3" is some kind of perfect number in Hebrew Gemantria. Thus we do not have a duality (2) or a quadrinity (4) we have a trinity. Trinity being 3, the Christians had to come up with three gods to fill in the spaces. Thus we had Yahweh before Jesus, then we got Jesus and then finally through Paul and the gospel writers we got the Holy Ghost aka the Holy Spirit since "ghost" sounds spooky--it was a matter of political correctness as to which term was more acceptable in light of the advancing Enlightenment of the 17th century.
I myself believe that the concept of the "tyrinity" whether from the Hindus or later from the Christians derived from the pyramid; whether you take the normal pyramid and place Yahweh at the top point and Jesus and the HS on the bottom two, or you invert the pyramid and put Yahweh and the Holy Spirit on the top and Jesus on the bottom it's all the same. Jews saw some significance in this number and so three gods were necessary to make the concept work. I think we see this in the human body: the main trunk and the the right and the left hands outstretched representing a main god Yahweh as the trunk and Jesus sitting at the right hand and the Holy Spirit on the left.
My personal belief about God comes from innumerable NDE's I've read about. Never once did people having an NDE describe being judged by 3 deities or 3 in 1 or any of these configurations; there was just the "Light", an all-encompassing entity of love, understanding and empathy. Nothing about this Being was split into three separate beings. It was just one Being, and so I had to drop this idea of the fundamentalist/Catholic Trinity as being totally and absolutely bogus.
That's a really tough question for the Christians, even the Hindus to grapple with, Pleroo. From a factual standpoint--Mike's mistaken belief about the Hindus coming after Christianity notwithstanding (and I know he's going to split hairs with me on that)--the Hindu concept of the trinity came first, no doubt about that. Wiki makes it very clear that Hindus were on the scene first.
Now did God--the one true God I worship as a deist--instill the concept of a trinity into men or didn't He? I don't think so. The one true God is not proactive in this world. If He were He would answer prayers and cure diseases and make things right, but He doesn't. So I'm convinced based on His total absence in this world that HE doesn't get involved at all in doctrine of men's religions.
So is the concept of the Hindu trinity man-made? Of course. Is the concept of the Christian trinity man-made? Of course.
As to who stole from who it's obvious based on history's timeline that Christianity was the last to adopt the belief in a trinity at a time when the Hindu belief had already been around for a thousand years. So it's pretty obvious the Christians stole the idea from the Hindus.
As to why, well Jews had a pantheon of gods just like the Hindus did. Gradually they ditched them all except Yahweh, then they adopted this man Jesus as being God's son come to earth to die (ala Dionysus, Osirus, Mithra, Romulus, and a whole plethora of other dying/rising gods) and then as Paul talked about a Spirit they worked in a Holy Ghost into the mix and voila--we have a trinity not too much different from the Hindu version. It was a very gradual evolution over a thousand years to get to where Christians are today but it didn't come as in a revelation from God. Men slowly tweaked and refined it over a long stretch of centuries, proving beyond any doubt that the Christian trinity is a man-made concept based on the Hindu model.
I didn't say that Hinduism came after Christianity. What I said was, as shown in post #20 of the thread Accept Jesus As Your Lord & Savior Just Updated Version of "Accept Krishna"., since the final form of the Bhagavad Gita wasn't reached until the forth to the seventh centuries A.D., there is no justification for assuming that Christianity borrowed from Hinduism. It is however very likely that since the final form of the Bhagavad Gita wasn't reached until hundreds of years after Christ, that any borrowing (that may have been done) was from the Bible to the Bhagavad Gita. Much more information is given in the thread to which I linked.
Now, regarding the claim that the Hindu Trimurti preceded the concept of the Christian trinity, the New World Encyclopedia states that the Hindu Trimuti didn't become a standard doctrine until the Puranas were composed.
''It was not until the arrival of the Puranas, a large corpus of mythical and historical Hindu texts, that the Trimuti became a standard doctrine.'''
The Puranas were composed sometime between the 3rd and 10th centuries A.D. That's after the time of Christ.
''There are 18 Maha Puranas (Great Puranas) and 18 Upa Puranas (Minor Puranas),[8] with over 400,000 verses.[3] The first versions of the various Puranas were likely composed between the 3rd- and 10th-century CE.[9] The Puranas do not enjoy the authority of a scripture in Hinduism,[8] but are considered a Smriti.[10]''
It wasn't until the second half of the first century A.D. that the first iconographic (pictures; diagrams) representations of the Trimurti appear.
''Iconographic representations of the Trimurti first appear around the latter half of the first millennium of the common era. For example, the famous image of the Trimurti statue found on Elephanta island (near Mumbai, India) was carved during the eighth to tenth century.''
Paraphrasing a bit from the New World Enclyopedia, prior to the Trimuti becoming a standard doctrine of Hinduism in the first century A.D., in the Hindu Epics (500-100 B.C.) the Hindu gods Shiva and Vishnu climbed to the top of the Hindu pantheon of gods. The god Brahma didn't get much attention in the Epics. The idea of Trimurti was introduced in the appendix of the Epics, but was overshadowed by Vishnu and Shiva being presented as a duad.
Again, the Trimuti did not become a standard doctrine in Hinduism until the latter half of the first century A.D.
The claim that the Christian concept of the Trinity is based on the Hindu Trimurti has no merit.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-02-2016 at 02:42 PM..
I'd have to say that the natures of the two trinities we are looking at militates against the idea: Creator, preserver, destroyer vs. creator, concept of community(Word), active communicator. I'd have to say that Thrill's analysis of the Christian process of realization (or making up) is the correct analysis there.
were works of repentance (rebound) around? Course they were. They [what Pleroo said) are just what grows from the Spirit, imo. Were there--are there--works unto rebound there? Aren't there?
so the subject is the trinity
actually I think the trinity is very easy to explain and I think God is going to explain the trinity to most of mankind like this .
in the old testament Jehovah gives prophesies to the Jews
Zec 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
then the new testament he says
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
you see in the old and the new testament that Jesus /Jehovah is offering the Jews who it seems a lot of or most will take the mark of the beast system and they use their right eye and their arm or maybe hand or whole arm as their biological signature (666 - XESorSEX = biology + mark+ signature =bio-signature calculations ) and so he says that if they cut the right arm off that with the signature and that is thus offending them and poke out that eye that is used as their signature and throw it away ... because it is offensive to them and to heaven..
that they can be saved ..
now is that offer to all people or only jews ? who knows ? because other places it says clearly anyone who takes the mark( the bio signature ) of the beast will not enter his kingdom . so they if they do they will do it as an act of faith that in the end He is gracious and forgiving of our transgressions against him and his Father and his spirit and forgive the sins that were committed against others .
so after poking out their right eye and cutting off their right hand or arm might I suggest that those people and that nation who the father Chose as his people and those people who have to be his priest and represent him before all nations and to all nations .. will understand just how much He loved all nations and all mankind and his right arm and his right eye but yet send those far from him . it seems that is best way for men to gain knowledge maybe ? experiences ?
Because those parts are still his parts and I am sure he loves his parts dearly and so will those people love their parts that they had to cut off to gain wisdom and empathy .
But they will learn a valuable lesson of just how much the Father himself sacrificed of himself long before he sent his right arm to die for mankind and to become a sin sacrifice to all . and before that is all over and done with, I sure think that mankind will understand what the trinity really is and exactly what is cost the Father , the Son and the Holy spirit to even have a relationship with all willing of mankind .
I thought that was a good plan to teach mankind wisdom and to give mankind the kind of knowledge and empathy they like , and kind of wisdom for what their sin cost God ! and just how much all three of His own parts love us.
Well, your other post below about symbolism in numbers tells quite a bit of truth: "3" is some kind of perfect number in Hebrew Gemantria. Thus we do not have a duality (2) or a quadrinity (4) we have a trinity. Trinity being 3, the Christians had to come up with three gods to fill in the spaces. Thus we had Yahweh before Jesus, then we got Jesus and then finally through Paul and the gospel writers we got the Holy Ghost aka the Holy Spirit since "ghost" sounds spooky--it was a matter of political correctness as to which term was more acceptable in light of the advancing Enlightenment of the 17th century.
I myself believe that the concept of the "tyrinity" whether from the Hindus or later from the Christians derived from the pyramid; whether you take the normal pyramid and place Yahweh at the top point and Jesus and the HS on the bottom two, or you invert the pyramid and put Yahweh and the Holy Spirit on the top and Jesus on the bottom it's all the same. Jews saw some significance in this number and so three gods were necessary to make the concept work. I think we see this in the human body: the main trunk and the the right and the left hands outstretched representing a main god Yahweh as the trunk and Jesus sitting at the right hand and the Holy Spirit on the left.
My personal belief about God comes from innumerable NDE's I've read about. Never once did people having an NDE describe being judged by 3 deities or 3 in 1 or any of these configurations; there was just the "Light", an all-encompassing entity of love, understanding and empathy. Nothing about this Being was split into three separate beings. It was just one Being, and so I had to drop this idea of the fundamentalist/Catholic Trinity as being totally and absolutely bogus.
hmm. wow. maybe that's the only way people can absorb Truth, without it exploding their brains? let's not forget the Evil King here
washington dc london vatican
so the subject is the trinity
actually I think the trinity is very easy to explain and I think God is going to explain the trinity to most of mankind like this .
in the old testament Jehovah gives prophesies to the Jews
Zec 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
then the new testament he says
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
you see in the old and the new testament that Jesus /Jehovah is offering the Jews who it seems a lot of or most will take the mark of the beast system and they use their right eye and their arm or maybe hand or whole arm as their biological signature (666 - XESorSEX = biology + mark+ signature =bio-signature calculations ) and so he says that if they cut the right arm off that with the signature and that is thus offending them and poke out that eye that is used as their signature and throw it away ... because it is offensive to them and to heaven..
that they can be saved ..
now is that offer to all people or only jews ? who knows ? because other places it says clearly anyone who takes the mark( the bio signature ) of the beast will not enter his kingdom . so they if they do they will do it as an act of faith that in the end He is gracious and forgiving of our transgressions against him and his Father and his spirit and forgive the sins that were committed against others .
so after poking out their right eye and cutting off their right hand or arm might I suggest that those people and that nation who the father Chose as his people and those people who have to be his priest and represent him before all nations and to all nations .. will understand just how much He loved all nations and all mankind and his right arm and his right eye but yet send those far from him . it seems that is best way for men to gain knowledge maybe ? experiences ?
Because those parts are still his parts and I am sure he loves his parts dearly and so will those people love their parts that they had to cut off to gain wisdom and empathy .
But they will learn a valuable lesson of just how much the Father himself sacrificed of himself long before he sent his right arm to die for mankind and to become a sin sacrifice to all . and before that is all over and done with, I sure think that mankind will understand what the trinity really is and exactly what is cost the Father , the Son and the Holy spirit to even have a relationship with all willing of mankind .
I thought that was a good plan to teach mankind wisdom and to give mankind the kind of knowledge and empathy they like , and kind of wisdom for what their sin cost God ! and just how much all three of His own parts love us.
i'm done.
As sound a theory on the trinity as I've ever heard.
so the subject is the trinity
actually I think the trinity is very easy to explain and I think God is going to explain the trinity to most of mankind like this .
in the old testament Jehovah gives prophesies to the Jews
Zec 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
then the new testament he says
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
you see in the old and the new testament that Jesus /Jehovah is offering the Jews who it seems a lot of or most will take the mark of the beast system and they use their right eye and their arm or maybe hand or whole arm as their biological signature (666 - XESorSEX = biology + mark+ signature =bio-signature calculations ) and so he says that if they cut the right arm off that with the signature and that is thus offending them and poke out that eye that is used as their signature and throw it away ... because it is offensive to them and to heaven..
that they can be saved ..
now is that offer to all people or only jews ? who knows ? because other places it says clearly anyone who takes the mark( the bio signature ) of the beast will not enter his kingdom . so they if they do they will do it as an act of faith that in the end He is gracious and forgiving of our transgressions against him and his Father and his spirit and forgive the sins that were committed against others .
so after poking out their right eye and cutting off their right hand or arm might I suggest that those people and that nation who the father Chose as his people and those people who have to be his priest and represent him before all nations and to all nations .. will understand just how much He loved all nations and all mankind and his right arm and his right eye but yet send those far from him . it seems that is best way for men to gain knowledge maybe ? experiences ?
Because those parts are still his parts and I am sure he loves his parts dearly and so will those people love their parts that they had to cut off to gain wisdom and empathy .
But they will learn a valuable lesson of just how much the Father himself sacrificed of himself long before he sent his right arm to die for mankind and to become a sin sacrifice to all . and before that is all over and done with, I sure think that mankind will understand what the trinity really is and exactly what is cost the Father , the Son and the Holy spirit to even have a relationship with all willing of mankind .
I thought that was a good plan to teach mankind wisdom and to give mankind the kind of knowledge and empathy they like , and kind of wisdom for what their sin cost God ! and just how much all three of His own parts love us.
i'm done.
Your right eye is utterly darkened and the light in you is darkness.
If your eye is good your body will be filled with light.
so the subject is the trinity
actually I think the trinity is very easy to explain and I think God is going to explain the trinity to most of mankind like this .
in the old testament Jehovah gives prophesies to the Jews
Zec 11:17
Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
then the new testament he says
Mat 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
i'm done.
pretty cool there, n..Xuipa. so, there is no "right hand " analog in the OT? no vv missing in the analogy? awesome, ty
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