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It's not a matter as to whether we like or love one another but rather that we exercise and apply a reasonable amount of knowledge to the scriptures that we preach.
I could be wrong and leave myself open to correction when I state that all references to same-sex references in the Bible pertain to pagan idolatry and affiliated worship practices. So far, no one has even attempted to correct me. Moreover, for those who bandy around the term 'abomination' regarding modern same-sex attraction and practice, check out Ezekiel 8:1-18. This chapter references 'abominations in the temple' and leaves us with very little doubt as to what 'temple abominations' are all about.
Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13* are likely similar examples of the 'doings' of idolatry, worship acts dedicated to images rather than to God. God really does hate the worship of anyone or anything other than Him!
*NO ONE knows precisely what those texts in Leviticus are referring to. So, when we're told that they refer to 'homosexuality' that is merely personal speculation and nothing more. However, when comparing and contrasting those texts with others from the same book we can be pretty certain that they refer to idolatry practices ...it's highly unlikely that they would be a reference to the modern definition of 'homosexuality'.
There is a difference between cogent and inadequately terse responses, Richard. You did not answer the question posed that is designed to get you to think about and clarify WHAT about God does not change.
ok, to you yourself, it might not matter. but for me it does, because it matters to Jehovah God and Jesus. also Jesus stated that a Christian should love his brother ,(John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another), as well as loving others ,(Matt. 22:39). especially those who attacks you, be it, a subtle way or full force, your enemies, (Matthew 5:44). as i stated before, which didn't seem to be understood, i do understand the scriptures that was post concerning "idolatry worship."
but again, Jehovah's words stands even if MANY refuse to accept it. abomination to Jehovah God and Jesus is an abomination. and if they speak of what is considered to be that, one can't make it what they wish it to mean. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them). Jehovah God's words speaks loud and clear here. and it's NOT hard to understand. the act... IS an abomination.
again...(Rom.1:26,27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet). here has NOTHING to do with "idolatry" or "abominations in the temple". Jehovah's word is very clear, he is referring to men and women being with those of the same sex in an UNNATURAL WAY. we all know what that mean.
ok, to you yourself, it might not matter. but for me it does, because it matters to Jehovah God and Jesus.
What are you talking about here? What did I say that makes you feel that nothing matters to me?
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
. . .also Jesus stated that a Christian should love his brother ,(John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another), as well as loving others ,(Matt. 22:39). especially those who attacks you, be it, a subtle way or full force, your enemies, (Matthew 5:44) . . .
I have no idea what the above has to do with anything that I've posted.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
as i stated before, which didn't seem to be understood, i do understand the scriptures that was post concerning "idolatry worship."
Clearly you don't. Below you're about to post scriptures 'as is' for which you don't give one iota of background as to their actual meaning. Any scripture that is posted without a blow-by-blow explanation accompanying them are not worth the consideration of any reasoning person.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
.. .but again, Jehovah's words stands even if MANY refuse to accept it. abomination to Jehovah God and Jesus is an abomination. and if they speak of what is considered to be that, one can't make it what they wish it to mean. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them). Jehovah God's words speaks loud and clear here. and it's NOT hard to understand. the act... IS an abomination.
Um, jojo ...I'm not interested in your lifting texts from the Bible that I could just as well repeat in my sleep since I've seen them SO many times previously. What I AM interested in is what PRECISELY was going on within the Levite Tribe that made it necessary for such a 'command' to have been given in the first place. Understand? Were certain tribe members of the same gender pairing up to have sex because they were 'gay'? Yes? No? Or, were certain tribe members (whether gay or straight is irrelevant) worshiping other than the 'one God' just like the nasty foreigners and participating in temple prostitution? Yes? No? Or, was 'wasted seed' seen to be abominable because the long term survival of the tribe was dependent on procreation? Yes? No?
The answer is ...no one knows what those Leviticus texts mean although the idolatry practices or the survival of the tribe explanations fit the story much more so than the rather silly 'Adam and Steve' one. The worshiping of - and the practices affiliated with - idolatry are consistent with the Hebrew term for 'abomination' throughout the Old Testament. Give me facts, jojo, rather than the regurgitation of passages of scripture that you have no idea the meaning of.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
. . .again...(Rom.1:26,27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet). here has NOTHING to do with "idolatry" or "abominations in the temple". Jehovah's word is very clear, he is referring to men and women being with those of the same sex in an UNNATURAL WAY. we all know what that mean.
Ah, jojo ...how about you get back to me with a more complete explanation of Romans 1:26-27 by starting at the beginning of that chapter? Lifting verse 26 without further explanation as to what that text is referencing as understood from earlier verses is dishonest. However, that IS a rather typical ploy of your average anti-gay Christian. How about starting at Romans 1:18? THEN come back and tell me that Romans 1:18-27 is not referring to temple idolatry. Okay?
Oh, and by the way ...it might be a good idea not to persistently refer to Paul - a mere mortal - as 'Jehovah'.
again...(Rom.1:26,27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet). here has NOTHING to do with "idolatry" or "abominations in the temple". Jehovah's word is very clear, he is referring to men and women being with those of the same sex in an UNNATURAL WAY. we all know what that mean.
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21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Starting at 21, Paul explains that former believers exchanged their belief in God for idols made to look like mortal human beings, birds, and animals and reptiles. Then he goes on to explain the consequences of their idolatry.
This question is for Christians and particularly for those Christians who STILL use Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 to aim at gay people in an attempt to make them squirm.
The question is an easy one to answer. It's either 'yes' or 'no'. However, if it is 'yes' then a brief explanation will be required.
The question: Do you HONESTLY give a damn about ANY of the commands of Leviticus?
This could be a very short thread .. .
Yes. As a Christian Jew I believe the old testament is still relevant to us today.
What are you talking about here? What did I say that makes you feel that nothing matters to me? The answer is ...no one knows what those Leviticus texts mean although the idolatry practices or the survival of the tribe explanations fit the story much more so than the rather silly 'Adam and Steve' one. The worshiping of - and the practices affiliated with - idolatry are consistent with the Hebrew term for 'abomination' throughout the Old Testament. Give me facts, jojo, rather than the regurgitation of passages of scripture that you have no idea the meaning of.[/color]
you said ..."It's not a matter as to whether we like or love one another but rather that we exercise and apply a reasonable amount of knowledge to the scriptures that we preach."
there should NOT be a "reasonable amount of knowledge" of the scriptures, if we are to teach it. we are to have total accurate knowledge in order to teach. you said..."no one knows", than you are going by what you want to it to mean. the "facts"... were the verses that you refuse to acknowledge, for whatever reason. they do not leave anyone to question exactly what it is referring to. even if one doesn't understand much of Jehovah's words. in this case, which was about homosexuality.
in which i have answered to the poster concerning that being ONLY in the OLD Testaments. i PROVED it was also in the New. if you refuse to believe Jehovah God was speaking on "homosexuality, than that's your problem not mine. because again!... i understand ,even if you and others feel i don't. you don't want scriptures, that shows what you refuse to believe. yet you throw them out as though you have total understanding.
i have read Roman, the whole book, but since i don't seem to, (by you and others), NOT understand...(Romans 1:26,27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet). this seem to be so clear as to referring to homosexuality. if you can explain, since you understand and i don't. exactly..."FACT", what was meant by the "men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men", i would like to see it. and ah... i know Paul was a "mere mortal", I'm not referring to Paul as "Jehovah". I'm referring to ALL words are of Jehovah regardless of who's speaking. did you not read, (2Tim. 3:16)?
Starting at 21, Paul explains that former believers exchanged their belief in God for idols made to look like mortal human beings, birds, and animals and reptiles. Then he goes on to explain the consequences of their idolatry.
as i said many times, in which many seem to be ignoring. i understand what you and others are saying. but again, Jehovah God does show from scriptures that homosexuality isn't good in his eyes. as one bible version says ...(1Cor. 6:9 (CEB) Don’t you know that people who are unjust won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Those who are sexually immoral, those who worship false gods, adulterers, both participants in same-sex intercourse).
(ESV) renders it this way..."Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, "nor men who practice homosexuality"). be-it by use of a sex toy ,(in a sense), or human to human, it's a abomination to Jehovah God. and not matter how many refuse to see this, isn't going to change the way Jehovah God views it. and this applies to women just as it does men.
you said ..."It's not a matter as to whether we like or love one another but rather that we exercise and apply a reasonable amount of knowledge to the scriptures that we preach."
there should NOT be a "reasonable amount of knowledge" of the scriptures, if we are to teach it. we are to have total accurate knowledge in order to teach.
No one has 'total accurate knowledge' of the Bible. 'Interpretation' of scripture varies greatly. This is why we don't have one uniform Christian denomination but rather hundreds of them.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
. . .you said..."no one knows", than you are going by what you want to it to mean. the "facts"... were the verses that you refuse to acknowledge, for whatever reason. they do not leave anyone to question exactly what it is referring to. even if one doesn't understand much of Jehovah's words. in this case, which was about homosexuality.
Are you familiar with the medical definition of 'homosexuality', jojo? The 'ancients' who wrote the Bible certainly were not. They were ignorant on many levels about many things, and, understandably so. You cannot apply their natural ignorance on matters such as sexuality (and many, MANY other things) and even attempt to compare whatever they wrote about to today's far, far advanced scientific knowledge base. To do so is foolishness. And yet, you and many professed Christians use the Bible to attack/defame the character of others, also tend to be depressingly ignorant of anything else except the Bible, while not even have an understanding of the very book you use to do so.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
. . .in which i have answered to the poster concerning that being ONLY in the OLD Testaments. i PROVED it was also in the New. if you refuse to believe Jehovah God was speaking on "homosexuality, than that's your problem not mine. because again!... i understand ,even if you and others feel i don't. you don't want scriptures, that shows what you refuse to believe. yet you throw them out as though you have total understanding.
Same-sex practices are mentioned in the Bible, jojo. I've never said otherwise. What I HAVE said many times, however, is that in EVERY case of its mention in scripture it DOES NOT refer to homosexuality as per our modern definition of the term but to its affiliation with pagan idol worship practices. Are you familiar with the ancient concept of temple prostitutes? Are you familiar with the 'services' they provided to their 'clients'? These temple prostitutes were considered to be representative of a specific idol and the pagan worshipers considered them to be 'sacred'. The Old Testament refers to these temple prostitutes as 'sodomites'.
If you're not familiar with the above then you should perhaps read up on the sexual rituals that were performed TO the idols in exchange for supernatural favors FROM those idols. Are you aware that children were sacrificed to the idol Molech in ritualistic religious services? Can you imagine such things taking place in the pagan temples of the day? No, we today can't imagine these things. That's because we're talking about a glaringly different time and culture totally foreign to our own. And yet, you and others still wish to inflict those ancient scriptures on to the rest of us, scriptures that don't apply to us since we are not participating IN those pagan rituals.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
I have read Roman, the whole book, but since i don't seem to, (by you and others), NOT understand...(Romans 1:26,27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet). this seem to be so clear as to referring to homosexuality. if you can explain, since you understand and i don't. exactly..."FACT", what was meant by the "men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men", i would like to see it.
Reading and comprehending what you've read are two different things, jojo. Evidently you've never asked, "Hey, what IS Paul addressing here?" If you read Romans 1 from verse 18 you will find that there were apparently those in the early Christian Church who, 1. ONCE KNEW GOD and worshiped this same God, and who, 2. were now instead worshiping idols in the Pagan Temples since they had now abandoned God. They had now given preference to worshiping idols made in the image of mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles.
Question: does this sound like the common behavior of a homosexual person? No, of course it doesn't.
And, while Paul seems rather coy in giving us a complete run down of the sexual exploits that were evidently taking place in these pagan temples, he does provide enough information for us to work it out for ourselves from our previous reading of the passage that temple prostitutes were involved and that 'those who once knew and worshiped God' were participating IN these practices.
Question: Is participating in sexual rituals with temple prostitutes a common practice of homosexual people? No, of course not. Paul is not talking about homosexual people but (probably) normally heterosexual men practicing 'lustful sex' with prostitutes. Are you with me so far?
The MAIN theme surrounding Romans 1:18-27 and beyond is referring to the worship of false idols rather than the worship of the one true God. To Paul, it was a serious issue for one to abandon God and worship idols. You can feel his frustration in Romans 1:18-27. This is a RELIGIOUS issue and not a SECULAR issue. These practices were being performed within a religious setting. As I've stated many times previously, Paul was NOT addressing the practices of 'Adam and Steve' (i.e. figurative for a homosexual couple) but IDOLATRY.
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Originally Posted by jojo-50
. . .and ah... i know Paul was a "mere mortal", I'm not referring to Paul as "Jehovah". I'm referring to ALL words are of Jehovah regardless of who's speaking. did you not read, (2Tim. 3:16)?
Yes, I did read 2 Timothy 3:16. AND, that piece of text DOES NOT refer to anything other than the Old Testament. When written, there was no such thing as a 'New' Testament.
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if you can explain, since you understand and i don't. exactly..."FACT", what was meant by the "men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men", i would like to see it. and ah... i know Paul was a "mere mortal", I'm not referring to Paul as "Jehovah". I'm referring to ALL words are of Jehovah regardless of who's speaking. did you not read, (2Tim. 3:16)?
