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Actually, when read in proper context and not just snippets, there is nowhere in the NT in which Gods followers ate unclean foods or taught others to do so as well.
It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, (sound familiar)?
This question is for Christians and particularly for those Christians who STILL use Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 to aim at gay people in an attempt to make them squirm.
The question is an easy one to answer. It's either 'yes' or 'no'. However, if it is 'yes' then a brief explanation will be required.
The question: Do you HONESTLY give a damn about ANY of the commands of Leviticus?
This could be a very short thread .. .
Do you really care whether they do or not? Does it matter to you or are you just using Leviticus as a point of accusation? Are you now judging those you accuse of judging you? There is a big difference between judging and warning. No Christian has the authority to judge. We do, however, have a mandate to warn (Ezekiel 33). Jesus did not judge, but He did warn and His generation didn't like it any more than ours likes to be warned.
There is more to life than living, there is more to death than dying and righteous living involves more than many are willing to admit. There is more going on here than you wish to understand. If a man chooses to follow the Law, then what is that to you?
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" - 1 Cor. 6:9
Grocery stores are littered with tabloids that seem to hold every secret of life and happiness - even pretending to tell us how to live happily with God. I submit that the happiness they are proposing is a fleeting thing and is not efficacious for right living before God at all. If one wants to know how to live a Godly life, then Leviticus is the book to read, not cheap tabloid journals.
"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD." - Leviticus 19:28
We see from the above another measure of right living our post modern churches do not teach. Such teaching is ignored in favor of happy talk that fills seats and encourages donations. False teaching is always inspired by the desire for financial contributions. Therefore tattoos are acquired and displayed prominently by Christians (and Jews) who ought not do so. What are we to learn from all this? That our fake shepherds do not wish to lead their flock in the ways of the Lord.
"Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy." - Revelation 22:11
The End Times are upon us and judgment is coming speedily. Let the sinner wallow in his sin a little while longer, but leave the righteous and the just alone. Appropriate reward and punishment will be meted out very soon.
There is still a little time to repent. If one wishes to get right with God he or she would be well advised to not delay in making all efforts to do so.
and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Last edited by Choir Loft; 02-25-2018 at 07:11 AM..
This question is for Christians and particularly for those Christians who STILL use Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 to aim at gay people in an attempt to make them squirm.
The question is an easy one to answer. It's either 'yes' or 'no'. However, if it is 'yes' then a brief explanation will be required.
The question: Do you HONESTLY give a damn about ANY of the commands of Leviticus?
This could be a very short thread .. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushyEyeBrows
If you truly want an answer, your questions shouldn't include bashing Christians . This is the first post I've ever read in this forum and I must say, this is very hateful and nasty. Christians do not use Leviticus "to make another person squirm".
Au contraire. When the subject of homosexuality is raised within a Christian setting, I have never heard Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 used for any other reason THAN to make gay people squirm! Why else would these two texts be raised in the first place if not for that purpose? But you are correct about hateful and nasty when applied to such Christians who do this ...and there are many of them!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushyEyeBrows
If that is happening to you, then it's probably the holy spirit convicting you.
No, it's not happening to me so there is no 'Holy Spirit convicting' going on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushyEyeBrows
Do I care about those commands in Leviticus? Yes but within the context they were given.
Since context is so important to you, in what context were Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 given? Who, precisely, was "God" referring to and what, specifically, were these particular practices that "God" was addressing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushyEyeBrows
Christians live in the new covenant, not the old covenant which passed away.
The ONLY parts of the 'old covenant' that were 'nailed to the cross' were the sacrificial laws that Jesus made null and void by His crucifixion. As far as I'm aware, Sabbath-abrogators are still commanded to be executed. So too - if you believe Leviticus 20:13 to refer to homosexuality - are gay people. You can't only 'half-believe' a commandment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushyEyeBrows
So most of us don't give a whole lot of credence beyond the 10 commandments re-iterated in the New Testament.
Do most Christians keep ALL the Ten Commandments? I bet most don't keep the 4th ...!
It is? Where? In fact, where is homosexuality called a 'sin' at all in either the Old OR the New Testaments? I can't even find the word 'homosexuality' in my King James Bible. And, as far as I'm aware ...there is no equivalent word in Hebrew, in Aramaic or in Greek. Should I best purchase a post-1946 Bible which does include the word 'homosexuality'?
Why? Why would God see fit to forbid certain foods in the Old Testament but not in the New? The forbidding of 'unclean' food had nothing to do with any of the statutes and ordinances that pointed to Jesus and were 'nailed to the cross'. Why is one particular command of God 'lifted' simply because of some 'new and improved' covenant? If certain foods were unclean at one time what suddenly makes them 'clean' now ...?
Acts 10:11- regardless how you think about it Peter was shown a vision and he ate with the Gentiles. God has never instructed anyone to go through the act of homosexuality, an abomination.
You falsely accused the Elect of wanting to watch homosexuals squirm under condemnation. That is a lie and everyone including you knows it. So why demean yourself for saying such things? Or perhaps you cannot help it? Very telling...
It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, (sound familiar)?
These verses are used all the time to say Jesus canceled the dietary laws.
Mark 7:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”
Matthew 15:16-20 16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
-The whole issue in both these parallel chapters were the Pharisees were accusing them of eating with unwashed hands.
Matthew 15:2 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Mark 7:5 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
-Jesus then went on to challenge them as to why do they put aside the commands of God to follow their traditions. So it would make no sense for Jesus to tell them about stop putting aside the commands of God and following the traditions of men and then turn right around and tell them it is now okay to put aside the commands of God and you can now break the dietary laws. The issue was about eating with unwashed hands, not dietary laws debate.
-Jesus no where says in either of those 2 chapters, you now have a free ticket to eat unclean foods now and there was not even any debate on clean vs unclean foods in those chapters.
-Mathew 15 and Mark 7:19 make it very clear that eating with unwashed hands doesn't defile you or make anyone unclean, so those verses CANT be used to say Jesus said we cant eat whatever we want.
But this is exactly what the OP is talking about, if Homosexuality is a sin, which it is according to Lev, why is it okay to go a few chapters before or after and ignore those commands, but judge of about not keeping Lev 18
The Old Testament is wonderful, as it came from God. Jesus then brought a new covenant, which also condemns homosexuality. Homosexuality defiles God's image of a man and a woman coming together to be one.
This question is for Christians and particularly for those Christians who STILL use Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 to aim at gay people in an attempt to make them squirm.
The question is an easy one to answer. It's either 'yes' or 'no'. However, if it is 'yes' then a brief explanation will be required.
The question: Do you HONESTLY give a damn about ANY of the commands of Leviticus?
This could be a very short thread .. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Do you really care whether they do or not?
Not particularly. However, I like to have fun with Christian hypocrites which is not ALL Christians, I quickly add.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Does it matter to you or are you just using Leviticus as a point of accusation?
Could be ...it depends on the responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Are you now judging those you accuse of judging you?
Well, I have never had those particular Leviticus texts aimed at me since I've given no one any reason to do so. However, I (as do we all) constantly see and hear them being aimed at others constantly. And yet, I/we never hear any of the other myriad of commands as found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy used to condemn others. You know why? The real reason? Because 99% of professed Christians only know of the 'man lying with man' passages! And, probably 99% of them would not be able to quote the exact chapter and verse if asked!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
There is a big difference between judging and warning. No Christian has the authority to judge. We do, however, have a mandate to warn (Ezekiel 33). Jesus did not judge, but He did warn and His generation didn't like it any more than ours likes to be warned.
Unfortunately, Christianity has earned itself a rather bad name over the decades and many of the public see the glaring hypocrisy of too many Christians within the Church. So, why on earth would they heed to your so-called 'warnings' when they hardly trust the people giving them out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
There is more to life than living, there is more to death than dying and righteous living involves more than many are willing to admit. There is more going on here than you wish to understand.
Be good to your neighbor, tend to the poor, the sick, the incarcerated and that's pretty much all that Jesus asked of us. There is no need for any deep theology for we mere mortals to understand. Keep it simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
If a man wishes to follow the Law, then what is that to you?
No one (I'm sure) keeps the myriad of laws found in the Old Testament. Many would probably be hard-pressed to keep all ten commands of the Big Ten. So, whenever anyone brings up Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 we need to ask them, "Do YOU keep the 613-odd commands found in the OT?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Um . . .isn't that EVERY ONE of us? Paul refers to all of our 'righteousness' being as 'filthy rags'. This is not to mention that perhaps not everyone shares your enthusiasm to inherit the kingdom of God. Why do Christians simply assume that everyone does want to inherit the kingdom of God? What does that even mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
" - 1 Cor. 6:9
You must be quoting from a corrupt post-1946 Bible. The original scripture - even the King James Version of the Bible - does not read that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Grocery stores are littered with tabloids that seem to hold every secret of life and happiness - even pretending to tell us how to live happily with God. I submit that the happiness they are proposing is a fleeting thing and is not efficacious for right living before God at all. If one wants to know how to live a Godly life, then Leviticus is the book to read, not cheap tabloid journals.
You may be right about the cheap tabloid journals but are you sure you want to recommend Leviticus to them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD." - Leviticus 19:28
We see from the above another measure of hypocritical activity on the part of the pseudo religious. Tattoos are acquired and displayed prominently by Christians (and Jews) who ought not do so. What are we to learn from all this?
That you know at least one other text from Leviticus than the majority of Christians do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
"Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy." - Revelation 22:11
I have no issues with those Christians who practice what they preach as long as what they practice and preach is 'love'. I realize that that is rather cliche but I have known a few of them in my time. I met Apollo Astronaut James Irwin in 1988 during an evangelical program and, even though we only spent a brief moment chatting, that man exuded 'Christianity' and that really impacted on me. If anyone could be considered 'holy' that man came pretty close as far as I was concerned. Many, many people are basically good but the biggest drawback is that God made them human complete with human failings. No human can possibly ever be what the God of the Bible requires them to be. So, quoting scripture to that effect is rather pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
The End Times are upon us and judgment is coming speedily. Let the sinner wallow in his sin a little while longer, but leave the righteous and the just alone.
Some may come close but 'the righteous' don't exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
Appropriate reward and punishment will be meted out very soon.
And you can't wait to see the punishment metered out ...right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft
There is still a little time to repent. If one wishes to get right with God he or she would be well advised to not delay in making all efforts to do so.
In the NT Jesus and God eliminated the dietary laws: Mark 7:19 & Acts 10: 10-15.
Col 2:15-16 tell us that festival are only a shadow of the good things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. All 7 of them teach a spiritual truth. For example, Passover points to Jesus' crucifixion.
If Jesus eliminated them, then he would have actually been going agaisnt his fathers word and would have been a sinner, and we all know he didnt sin, so neither of the eliminated them.
Mark 7 & Mat 15 was a parable about not washing your hands doesnt make one unclean. Acts 10:28 clarified Acts 10:10-15 that his vision was about not referring to the gentiles as Unclean. Peters vision had nothing to do with unclean food now being clean.
Col 2, in context is telling the new believers in Colossians to not let anyone judge them for actually keeping the commandments, not the other way around. I used to strongly believe Jesus said Christian can eat anything they want, until I reread the entire New Testament 2-3 times in context, with an open mind and no doctrines attacked, and it was then when you realize that mainstream Christianity now flips an takes Matt 15, Acts 10, Col 2, 1 Tim 4, and Romans all out of context so say you can eat unclean foods.
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. This is the first post I've ever read in this forum and I must say, this is very hateful and nasty. Christians do not use Leviticus "to make another person squirm".
