Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Four months ago, I was an atheist. I wasn't looking for Jesus, but He found me anyway! Without God pursuing me, there's no reason I wouldn't have persisted in atheism.
My friend: The Lord Jesus Christ seeks lost sheep (& goats) until He finds them. He will not rest with 99% return.
“Our task as image-bearing, God-loving, Christ-shaped, Spirit-filled Christians, following Christ and shaping our world, is to announce redemption to a world that has discovered its fallenness, to announce healing to a world that has discovered its brokenness, to proclaim love and trust to a world that knows only exploitation, fear and suspicion” -N.T. Wright-
Four months ago, I was an atheist. I wasn't looking for Jesus, but He found me anyway! Without God pursuing me, there's no reason I wouldn't have persisted in atheism. But God has opened my eyes and my heart. God doesn't do this for everyone. Why me? If I had to build my faith all on my own, it would not and could not stand. Thankfully, God is doing it for me! All glory be to God and none to me!
I know this because I've experienced it. But no one should believe me solely because of what I tell you has happened in my life. I would have had no good reason to cite my own experiences if not for your ad hominem, because everyone should refer to the Bible first as the ultimate authority. The article I posted presents a cogent case for the two wills of God, shows it's not a novel idea, and backs it up with Scripture.
Although useful for inspiration, the Bible is not the ultimate authority.
And, it surely doesn't make you the elect of God while others suffer.
The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.
Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!
There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…
Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.
Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.
Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.
Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.
Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.
Chalowph
The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
It is becoming clear to me after following the Living One for these past 62 years how slow I am. The outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable unknown is beginning to break upon my poor thick being. I do trust each of us as we are caught up into Him will find many stars and galaxies breaking from single points of light in His heavens. What a wonderful journey this is!
The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.
Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!
There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…
Tamiym/ 'ymt means to be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.
Kalal has the same meaning, linking destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.
Tamam, the root word of Tamiym means to be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.
Shalam/ ~IX, another expression of destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.
Shebar, rooted in Shabar, means breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.
Chalowph
The destructive Hebrew word Chalowph is rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.
In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
It is becoming clear to me after following the Living One for these past 62 years how slow I am. The outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable unknown is beginning to break upon my poor thick being. I do trust each of us as we are caught up into Him will find many stars and galaxies breaking from single points of light in His heavens. What a wonderful journey this is!
I asked the Lord (again and again and again in the past) for insight into how his death saves us. He finally directed my thoughts to the times I helped my grandmother with her food preservation; specifically, the freezing of string beans. We would pick them and then snap them into shorter pieces and then blanch them before bagging them for the freezer. I asked her why the blanching for a few moments in boiling water. She told me if beans are not blanched, even if frozen they would spoil (due to enzymatic action that is stopped by blanching).
So, to keep it short, the beans are not altered but the enzymatic action is stopped. For universal salvation to happen, as with beans not going to ruin, humanity needed (and needs) a blanching. If we are like spiritual beans, the bean remains a bean but the change wrought by God doesn't depend on the bean. And a blanched bean tastes better, too!
Blanch green beans in a large stock pot of well salted boiling water until bright green in color and tender crisp, roughly 2 minutes. Drain and shock in a bowl of ice water to stop from cooking. Heat a large heavy skillet over medium heat. Add the oil and the butter.
_________
And to poke at Calvin, my grandmother did not will to save one string bean and not another with her blanching -- and not save them all by blanching the entire pile. Funny how my grandmother was wiser than Calvin's limited atonement God. LOL I'm sure, though, The Salvation entails the use by God of all the functions of creation (like neutralizing green bean enzymes) including quantum physics and other functions we may never be aware of, or ever understand in this life.
I asked the Lord (again and again and again in the past) for insight into how his death saves us. He finally directed my thoughts to the times I helped my grandmother with her food preservation; specifically, the freezing of string beans. We would pick them and then snap them into shorter pieces and then blanch them before bagging them for the freezer. I asked her why the blanching for a few moments in boiling water. She told me if beans are not blanched, even if frozen they would spoil (due to enzymatic action that is stopped by blanching).
So, to keep it short, the beans are not altered but the enzymatic action is stopped. For universal salvation to happen, as with beans not going to ruin, humanity needed (and needs) a blanching. If we are like spiritual beans, the bean remains a bean but the change wrought by God doesn't depend on the bean. And a blanched bean tastes better, too!
Blanch green beans in a large stock pot of well salted boiling water until bright green in color and tender crisp, roughly 2 minutes. Drain and shock in a bowl of ice water to stop from cooking. Heat a large heavy skillet over medium heat. Add the oil and the butter.
_________
And to poke at Calvin, my grandmother did not will to save one string bean and not another with her blanching -- and not save them all by blanching the entire pile. Funny how my grandmother was wiser than Calvin's limited atonement God. LOL I'm sure, though, The Salvation entails the use by God of all the functions of creation (like neutralizing green bean enzymes) including quantum physics and other functions we may never be aware of, or ever understand in this life.
Dear Wellsmaine: This is a wonderful post! Our Father is doing a great blanching job on us.
My being has recently begun to hear a new song coming from our Father. One cannot learn this song, you must be born out of it, and in it. There are many days I think I shall wrap up posting on any board, but the Song is overwhelming.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”
“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”
The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”
Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”
Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.
The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”
The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”
It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.
The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”
Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,
“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”
Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”
It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.
The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”
The Concordant Version (1930):
“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”
The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”
Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”
The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976
has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”
Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has
"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.
Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”
The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
I don't post often, but reading this thread every evening causes me to sleep happy!
Dear hball: It is a joy beholding you again. One day before graduation to the Song of all songs breaks upon me, I hope to be normal. Until then (if it ever happens) our Father cares for us, He has destined we shall walk in the Glory with Him!
The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free from the bondage of corruption...
“That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We’ve portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago.
So now, supposedly, it’s up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.
We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what we do for Him. With this teaching man is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty!
But our salvation ‘is not of him that willeth’ (any decision we make of ourselves), ‘nor of him that runneth’ (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!" – Kenneth Brix-
God IS the Saviour of all mankind, not some of it, ALL of it
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The ultimate authority abides with us as the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
