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No judgment could be forever in a universe ruled by an infinitely merciful God (Ps. 136:1-26)
As long as there are people in need of mercy, (and there always will be during the ages of time), we can rest assured that God's mercy will reach them all.
"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Ro. 12:21)
Does God operate in a way opposite to what He expects of us?
No judgment could be forever in a universe ruled by an infinitely merciful God (Ps. 136:1-26)
As long as there are people in need of mercy, (and there always will be during the ages of time), we can rest assured that God's mercy will reach them all.
"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Ro. 12:21)
Does God operate in a way opposite to what He expects of us?
The prevalent theology makes God out as one Who hates His enemies,
overcomes evil with evil, does evil to those that hate Him,
and blesses His enemies for a season, only to torment them forever.
It is my belief and that of millions of others that children under the age of eight cannot be held accountable for sin. They go to heaven, as does everyone who has chosen mainly good deeds and thoughts during their mortal lives, each to a level and "mansion" where they will be most comfortable and can progress if they choose to do so.
What about the verse "We are saved by grace through faith that is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast" ? Ep. 2:9
I believe that "good deeds and thoughts" are the product of the gift of saving faith. But only God Himself is the cause of our salvation.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading) Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
Christians are divided in their opinion about the fate of children who die.
Calvinists, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few”, also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, “there are babies a span long in hell”.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that her two infants (according to Arminian theology) will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Arminian Christians (free willers) believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this “the age of accountability”.
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *** (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies’ eternal salvation.
If Arminian Christians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls”. Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional "high" of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminian Christians) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say “I have saved my self from hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision.” God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.
The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong”. The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!”
The Scriptures teach that God will fit everyone of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 96 year old Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!”
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective “soul-savers” in the world, why do Arminian Christians get so upset with them?!
*** Christians kill others in war for less worthy causes than trying to save their souls.
As I have mentioned many times on forums, I, Rodger Tutt, had a complete nervous twelve year breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love or respect an endless - hell god. (I’m 70) My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.
One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: “The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell.”
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
“Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be ****ed. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?” End of Quote.
Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, “How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can’t even love or respect it’s God?”
In my library, I have several dozens of books, most of which I have read, and several hundred cassettes, by 29 different speakers, all of which I have listened to, some of them many times, by men who believe that the Bible (correctly translated) teaches universal transformation; that is, that God will eventually change all suffering into something better that it happened. These books and tapes answer, many times over, the arguments that I have read in seven, (plus parts of other) books in support of the idea that the Bible teaches never ending suffering for part of God’s creation.
In addition to these sources, Hurley Books, Westmoreland, New Hampshire, lists 463 universalist books that can be purchased from them. It will be a comfort to many, as it was to me, to learn that there are so many people who see this kind of God in the Bible.
It is my great joy in life to make this information available to many people via forums and emails. God will use all my efforts as He sees fit. In this great truth I relax! SEE absolute assurance in jesus christ
What about the verse "We are saved by grace through faith that is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not by works lest any man should boast" ? Ep. 2:9....
You addressed this post to me Rodger but I'm not going to bite. Though I think you are sincere in your beliefs I also think, based on seeing what you have done on several other boards and are doing on this one, that you are not interested in a discussion at all, you just want to copy and paste reams and reams of information that I rather think very few people if any are going to take the time to read because it's waaay too much overload.
Perhaps I'm wrong but the substance of your message seems to simply be "there is no hell." I happen to think differently.
No offense meant, just my opinion, enjoy the day.
Last edited by justamere10; 08-28-2009 at 12:59 PM..
You addressed this post to me Rodger but I'm not going to bite. Though I think you are sincere in your beliefs I also think, based on seeing what you have done on several other boards and are doing on this one, that you are not interested in a discussion at all, you just want to copy and paste reams and reams of information that I rather think very few people if any are going to take the time to read because it's waaay too much overload.
No offense meant, just my opinion, enjoy the day.
No offense taken.
OVERLOAD? DEPENDS ON WHOSE READING IT I GUESS
Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches. I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to WANT to or have to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 70 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-28-2009 at 12:24 PM..
Reason: SPACING
Perhaps I'm wrong but the substance of your message seems to simply be "there is no hell."
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Your "corrective chastisement" appears to be similar to the Catholic concept of "Purgatory" and the Mormons' "Spirit Prison" both temporary.
But (if you can restrict yourself to a few of your own sentences without copying from or linking to somewhere else) how about Satan, those who followed him in the premortal life and were cast out, and the "sons of perdition" such as Judas? Do they in your concept of life after death return to the fold to rub shoulders with those who strove mightily during mortality to be loving and caring to others?
Rodger! I was trying to have a conversation with YOU.
"if you can restrict yourself to a few of your own sentences without copying from or linking to somewhere else"
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Mercy will be triumphant over hell
