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Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches. I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to WANT to or have to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 70 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
On a day towards the end of January at the beginning of last year, I unexpectedly went through the same thing you went through Rodger, I honestly don't know what I would have done if this had happened a few years ago, I didn't know there were others that had the same questions I did, for which I could find NO satisfactory answers
The honest truth is...before that I didn't care about people, I was indifferent...until the day when I saw something that started this whole thing....I certainly didn't ask for it to happen, I had enough problems as it was before this all started, but when this came my other problems paled into insignificance... and trust me when I say that they weren't small insignificant problems...I certainly did'nt ask to suddenly being burdened about other peoples salvation to the point where I couldn't bear it...what's ironic about this whole thing is that I probably would have the same reaction as many others on here, had I not gone through it myself, no one can truly understand unless they've been there themselves
I came on here with an agenda which has been changed, I wanted to fight everybody that thought differently from myself, but I realize we all see things differently and I've come to accept everyone for who and what they are and believe, I just hope I'm on the right trail as I can't seem to change it even if I wanted to...I could never go back to being the person I was before this all got started...
On a day towards the end of January at the beginning of last year, I unexpectedly went through the same thing you went through Rodger, I honestly don't know what I would have done if this had happened a few years ago, I didn't know there were others that had the same questions I did, for which I could find NO satisfactory answers
The honest truth is...before that I didn't care about people, I was indifferent...until the day when I saw something that started this whole thing....I certainly didn't ask for it to happen, I had enough problems as it was before this all started, but when this came my other problems paled into insignificance... and trust me when I say that they weren't small insignificant problems...I certainly did'nt ask to suddenly being burdened about other peoples salvation to the point where I couldn't bear it...what's ironic about this whole thing is that I probably would have the same reaction as many others on here, had I not gone through it myself, no one can truly understand unless they've been there themselves
I came on here with an agenda which has been changed, I wanted to fight everybody that thought differently from myself, but I realize we all see things differently and I've come to accept everyone for who and what they are and believe, I just hope I'm on the right trail as I can't seem to change it even if I wanted to...I could never go back to being the person I was before this all got started...
Thanks for that Alison! I understand completely where you are coming from!
I want to move my previous post up because I think it's important.
I deleted the previous copy.
Regarding “the son of perdition” click on Bible Threatenings Explained
then scroll down and click on
THE SON OF PERDITION
Copy and paste into Google
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
or click on The Outcome of Infinite Grace
It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, Col. 1:20, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.
A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.
But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.
Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.
Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.
SCRIPTURAL PROOF THAT ALL FALLEN CREATURES WILL BE SAVED
Copy and paste into Google
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS or click on Reconciliation in the Heavens
C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”
Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven Chapter Eleven
I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."
Copy and paste into Google
THE LAKE OF FIRE EBY or click on The Lake of Fire
NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE AND DETERMINED TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND SOONER OR LATER WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.
We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.
"For the Son of man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" (Lu. 9:56).
Christ has a world purpose.
He came to give life to the world and not only a select few (Jn. 6:33).
He gave His flesh for the life of the world in its entirelty (Jn. 6:51).
Neither did He come to condemn, or even to judge the world, but to save it (Jn. 3:17;12:47).
Should not these "world" passages tell us something?
They sre totally consistent with Who He is - the Savior of the "world" (Jn. 4:42;1Jn. 4:14)
How glorious these promises are when we understand them in their unlimited scope and power!
Although destruction and judgment remain, they will not frustrate God's ultimate purpose for the world.
They are but the means to its fulfillment in the fullness of times.
"God did not send His Son to condemn the world" (Jn. 3:17).
"My flesh which I shall give for the life of the world" (Jn. 6:51)
"Neither did He come to judge the world but to save it" (Jn. 12:47)
Christ came to save the world. That is His purpose.
And nothing less than a world saved will satisfy Him.
Rejoice in the full splendour of these precious proclamation passages.
No longer allow their glory to be stripped from your heart.
On a day towards the end of January at the beginning of last year, I unexpectedly went through the same thing you went through Rodger, I honestly don't know what I would have done if this had happened a few years ago, I didn't know there were others that had the same questions I did, for which I could find NO satisfactory answers.
The honest truth is...before that I didn't care about people, I was indifferent...until the day when I saw something that started this whole thing....I certainly didn't ask for it to happen, I had enough problems as it was before this all started, but when this came my other problems paled into insignificance... and trust me when I say that they weren't small insignificant problems...I certainly didn't ask to suddenly being burdened about other peoples salvation to the point where I couldn't bear it...what's ironic about this whole thing is that I probably would have the same reaction as many others on here, had I not gone through it myself, no one can truly understand unless they've been there themselves.
I came on here with an agenda which has been changed, I wanted to fight everybody that thought differently from myself, but I realize we all see things differently and I've come to accept everyone for who and what they are and believe, I just hope I'm on the right trail as I can't seem to change it even if I wanted to...I could never go back to being the person I was before this all got started...
In his book WHAT'S SO AMAZING ABOUT GRACE, Philip Yancey wrote
"What can be said about God if from eternity he decided to send people to eternal damnation in order that his grace toward others might appear more laudable?"
Those Christians who blindly accept what they are taught are no different from modern religious terrorists who do the same. How many terrorist have critically examined their traditions to verify if what they have been taught is true?
What is the most henous of terrors? Is it being captured by terrorists, tortured, and beheaded? Or is it being cast into a lake of fire to suffer forever without any hope of ever being released?
God calls us to judge for ourselves what is right (Lu. 12:57) ----
to test all things and hold fast to that which is good (1Th. 5:21)
It is not enough to claim Scripture as our authority.
The exclusive teaching of hundreds of Christian pastors claim that only their way of belief and behavior will attain salvation, and they all claim the Scriptures as the authority for their beliefs.
In his book JESUS WORD, JESUS WAY, Randy Klassen wrote
"An eternal hell poses the problem of a glaring inconsistency in the character of God. There is an affront to an enlightened sense of justice.
There is also the matter of what purpose is served by it all.
Whose victory is finally won if most people are in hell? (end of quote)
I would like add what purpose is served if even one person suffers forever?!
Don't let your conscience be seared by the traditions of men, or suppresed when confronted by what seem to be conflicting Scriptures.
The moral witness is God's defense system protecting us from error.
Truth will not contradict it.
Remember, just because you encounter an argument that doesn't seem to have an answer, don't assume that there is no answer.
Personally, I have never encountered an argument that seemingly proves that suffering will be endless that has not been refuted.
For example, here is a link that responds to many such arguments.
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson Bible Threatenings Explained
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-29-2009 at 01:05 PM..
Reason: spelling
It is my belief and that of millions of others that children under the age of eight cannot be held accountable for sin. They go to heaven, as does everyone who has chosen mainly good deeds and thoughts during their mortal lives, each to a level and "mansion" where they will be most comfortable and can progress if they choose to do so.
That's how I see it.
Your belief in everlasting punishment makes abortion a heroic act of mercy.
It also makes it impossible to keep God's commands like "do not worry," and "rejoice always," and "love God with all your heart," when you believe that your loved ones may not have chosen enough good deeds, and thought enough good thoughts to make it into heaven and therefore are in danger of an eternal hell.
Your belief in everlasting punishment makes abortion a heroic act of mercy.
It also makes it impossible to keep God's commands like "do not worry," and "rejoice always," and "love God with all your heart," when you believe that your loved ones may not have chosen enough good deeds, and thought enough good thoughts to make it into heaven and therefore are in danger of an eternal hell.
Those are your thoughts Rodger, not mine.
Isn't "everlasting" another name for God, as in "God's punishment"?
I personally think that there will be very few people who will be consigned to Perdition where Satan and his hosts will dwell. Among those we know will be Judas, for the Lord called him a "son of perdition." We can speculate that Hitler for example might be among them, but we cannot judge, that is entirely up to God.
What I was trying to point out is my belief that all good people go to heaven, and that includes infants and children under the age of eight. (Not disimilar I don't think to what you are trying very hard to get across to your audience.)
Isn't "everlasting" another name for God, as in "God's punishment"?
I personally think that there will be very few people who will be consigned to Perdition where Satan and his hosts will dwell. Among those we know will be Judas, for the Lord called him a "son of perdition." We can speculate that Hitler for example might be among them, but we cannot judge, that is entirely up to God.
What I was trying to point out is my belief that all good people go to heaven, and that includes infants and children under the age of eight. (Not disimilar I don't think to what you are trying very hard to get across to your audience.)
For anyone else who may be interested ---
Regarding the salvation of “the son of perdition” click on Bible Threatenings Explained
then scroll down and click on
THE SON OF PERDITION
FIFTEEN CHAPTERS OF PROOF COVERING THE MANY ASPECTS OF THE SUBJECT THAT SOONER OR LATER ALL FALLEN CREATURES EVERYWHERE WILL BE SAVED Savior of the World Series
Isn't "everlasting" another name for God, as in "God's punishment"?
aionion NEVER means everlasting
Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING Literal Translation versus / King James Version
•
Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began
• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-29-2009 at 03:44 PM..
Reason: addition
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