Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.
Here are the verses I got this from (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)
Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen.
(2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)
lifesigns, just in case you might be interested, here is Scriptural evidence why some of us believe in the eventual salvation (instead of annihilation) of all fallen creatures because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/rea...rchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author
Or JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html - broken link)
Here is an intro to the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern Concordant Publishing Concern
Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.
The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).
Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)
The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.
Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
Last edited by rodgertutt; 08-31-2009 at 09:24 AM..
Reason: spacing
Christ paid the unltimate price for all our sins.
The ransom has been paid in full for every person who has ever walked this earth.
There is no way anyone will ever have to pay again for what Christ has already paid for. For that would mean Christ suffered for that person in vain.
That is not possible.
He bought us all at a price, and we all belong to Him.
The sufferings we, both believers and unbelievers, incur as a result of God's righteous judgments are remedial and retributive, not redemptive.
Though He chastises, His chastisement could never take the place
of the blood of Christ as a propitiation and ransom.
Even if all were to incur the lake of fire which is the second death,
all men are still redeemed by the blood of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world
(1Pe. 1:20; 2Ti. 1:9; Re. 13:8.)
If your paradgim is the Augustinian view of eternal judgment,
then all Bible passages will be filtered through that mindset.
It is not easy to make a transition in paradgim.
What has dominated our thinking all our live in ingrained in us,
and the groves run deep.
We are not even aware of now powerfully it governs our whole thinking.
Only through a commited and determined effort are we enabled to overcome it.
A helpful link that might help you change your paradgim is
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson Bible Threatenings Explained
When there was an iron curtain, nobody tried to get inside it.
But many people (mostly unsuccessfully) tried escape out from behind it.
In the same way, many who start their Christian lives as eternal tormentors change their mind and become Christian Biblical Universalists after they examine the evidence that is available.
But I have never heard of anyone changing their mind and embracing eternal hell theology after they have examined the Biblical evidence in favor of universalism.
God doesn't do anything bad to children? What about all of those times in the Old Testament when the Jews were told to kill their enemies EVEN the women and children? Give me a break.
Also if you believe that God won't send kids to hell only because they've never heard of him then I guess all of the tribes in the Rain forests and Africa and pretty much anyone in the whole history of the world who hasn't been evangelized to gets a free pass into heaven because they never heard of God/Jesus. How could they? It all started in the middle east and spread from there. People around the world would have had no idea.
I guess going out and witnessing is the worst thing you can do. Don't you realize you're sending all of these people to hell? If they had never heard about thim then they would have gotten into heaven on a technicallity. It looks like you christians should rethink things in light of this revelation.
Furthermore, if we take the logic of hell according to those who believe in it then we must assume that the abortionists are good and are doing right because they are killing off potential sinners thus those that die at the hands of abortionists cannot go to hell... for they have never sinned.
(BTW I am not stating my stance on abortion in any way just trying to illuminate the fallacy of infinite punishment for finite crimes)
Furthermore, if we take the logic of hell according to those who believe in it then we must assume that the abortionists are good and are doing right because they are killing off potential sinners thus those that die at the hands of abortionists cannot go to hell... for they have never sinned.
(BTW I am not stating my stance on abortion in any way just trying to illuminate the fallacy of infinite punishment for finite crimes)
THE SALVATION OF CHILDREN
Christians are divided in their opinion about the fate of children who die.
Calvinists, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few”, also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, “there are babies a span long in hell”.
Arminians (free willers) consider this unfair, and assert that children who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It’s true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that her two infants (according to Arminian theology) will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Arminian Christians (free willers) believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this “the age of accountability”.
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *** (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies’ eternal salvation. If Arminian Christians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls”. Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminian Christians) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say “I have saved my self from hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision.” God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.
The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong”. The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!”
The Scriptures teach that God will fit everyone of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 96 year old Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!”
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective “soul-savers” in the world, why do Arminian evangelicals get so upset with them?!
*** Christians kill others in war for less worthy causes than trying to save their souls.
It was the schoolboy who said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.â€
SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN
"Everyone will be seasoned with fire" (Mark 9:49).
If we resist God's purifying fires in this age, we will need to go through them in the next age.
God will not give up on His purpose to transform us into the image of Christ, which is the purpose of our salvation.
Fire is always a good thing. It is for our fulfillment regardless of its pain.
No fire. No pain. No gain.
God's purifying purpose of removing all that is impure in those judged will be fully accomplished.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do?
It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will.
It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off.
The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire.
It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned.
The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer.
They are baptized in the very same fire.
The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone,
and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire.
Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to
Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches.
I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view.
Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god
who would allow anyone to WANT to or have to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided.
I'm 70 years old now.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell†nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,†and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted,
simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian),
or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist).
Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills).
That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible.
And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.
It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence. http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24).
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-04-2009 at 07:12 AM..
Reason: addition
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The lake of fire is corrective, not redemptive
