It's all about Relationships (doctrine, Revelation, scripture, Jesus)
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Originally Posted by esselcue And now He might "limit" his foreknowledge? Where did that come from?
Just to add a bit.. here are a few verses:
Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
"joy in heaven over one sinner that repents" proves to me that there is a certain part that is given over to us. If this sinner's repentance was a pre-scheduled event ("Ho hum, sinner #91384710987330089 has repented on schedule") wouldn't the joy be kind of empty, rather hollow? Whether God knows our future or not, I do not know, but this has absolutely no bearing on our ability to choose. For more on the subject of free will see this thread and others: http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...free-will.html
In order for God to have the kind of relationship He wanted with us, He HAD to limit Himself.. clip His own wings (as the Shack book puts it). He could have created a robotic creation that worshiped Him automatically.. but what kind of worship is that? He CHOSE to leave Himself vulnerable to beings that would turn against Him.. to create something that could revile His name... and at the same time, provided a remedy, so that no one will have excuse on the final day when the devil and his followers will be judged. He placed a tremendous investment in humanity (which cost His own Son), and is extremely interested in every soul's well-being.
The fact that God knew from the beginning what each of us would choose to do does not mean that He caused us to make the choice. We are all free to make our own choice. Yes, it is mind-boggling, but never the less....it all boils down to our choice! Even if He does not know what we will choose, it is still our choice.
We either choose to believe Him and to follow Him, or we choose not to. If we reject His word, and never repent and turn to Him, we will be judged accordingly.
He has every right to do that. He created us. He is the potter, we are the clay.
It is sad that so many resent that, but that is the way it is, and we cannot change it.
Although I did not asked to be born, I was....now it is up to me to decide who I want to serve, either God the Father, or Satan. I find choosing God the very best choice. I believe He is a very loving Father to all who obey Him. Even earthly fathers are not happy with children who will not obey them! In the case of earthly fathers, they sometimes die without ever seeing their child becoming obedient. That does not happen to God. We are the ones who die...either in our obedience, or in our disobedience.
Yes, Logic, that was my whole point in my post. Christians say God knows everything that is going to happen...why, oh, why are we then punished by an eternity of Hell when we don't believe in a Christian God (I am not an atheist). Did God know when we were born or conceived what our beliefs would be? It's too contrary to even wrap my brain around. And now He might "limit" his foreknowledge? Where did that come from?
As far as being punished by God for eternity, in "hell", let us leave the judging up to Him. A lot of people don't agree with that concept, and as for me, I don't know. Course I have no desire to either, but that isn't why I believe in God. If it was just a scare tactic, then they could keep it. God pulled me out from the deepest bottom one could go, so I know for sure He loves me.
God does know everything, but maybe in not the way that seems absolutely logical by our standards. Since time is irrelevant for God, being in and out of it would not be a hard thing to do. I think sometimes we as humans in our capacity to think and reason try to construct God into what we could "imagine" a God would be like. That in itself is our first flaw. God just IS. He is everything, in everything, and yet nowhere, in no-one. His imprint resides with our society, in our bodies, and in all of His creation. Call it a residual residing effect. A breath. But unless we make the choice to seek Him out, we are lost. What is "lost"? I don't know, but like I said, I don't have any desire to be.
What binds people to moral compasses and codes? What drives an atheist to not be the most destructive beast imaginable? Why couldn't they? Is it just the man made laws? Why even worry about that? Why not live as the best fittest to survive, and may the rest be damned to die.
See, I think everyone is endowed with a certain knowledge about God. Like I said, it is imprinted. The beastial systems of yesterday are gone, replaced by the a-typical governmental and religious systems of the day. All proclaiming something, driving their cause to even the death. But in the same reality, they also are far removed from God. Those systems are nothing like what Jesus taught. Those systems are what KILLED Him.
He died to set us free. Free in every sense of the word. Not only in life, but also in death. We choose our masters. See, I just love Him so much, and am thankful every day that I am alive in this flesh, that what I could do to best serve Him, is what drives me.
What drives a person of non faith? What would motivate a person who feels, but has no concept on what those feelings are, or where they are originated from. What causes a cat to eat the runt of the litter? They have no feelings, do they? Or a dog? Or a bird that has been touched by a human. Trying to relate ourselves into nothing but beasts, makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. Because if this is the case, then cares, love, hate, worries, revenge and such are nothing but mere illusions, given to you by your parents, who nurtured those feelings into how you feel today. A life print given by them. My question would be when you get to the top of the ladder to the first parents, where did they get theirs?
I believe that one (among many) aspect of God's relationship with us is that unlike our relationship with our children, He can and does reach into our hearts to turn them on His schedule.
There is no need for Him to do that, little elmer. He has given grace enough for all, and only requires what is possible for us to do. He is big enough to draw all mankind in this life, and to know all hearts. Although He could force all to serve Him, He is not looking for a forced relationship.
There is no need for Him to do that, little elmer. He has given grace enough for all, and only requires what is possible for us to do. He is big enough to draw all mankind in this life, and to know all hearts. Although He could force all to serve Him, He is not looking for a forced relationship.
Again, it is beyond our understanding; it will be a choice we all make (how's that for a riddle?).
Why did God create us? Wasn't it because He wanted to have a Creation to shower His love on, and He wanted this to be a voluntary relationship in order for this to bring glory to His name? A forced, predestined relationship really is no relationship at all.. kidnappers and abductees (is that a word?) may have a certain relationship, yet it is lacking. This is not the relationship God is looking for.
Where do we find ourself in the Plan?
Note: This discussion is not limited to those who have read the book!
I believe that all will voluntarily, willingly love God when they are confronted with their sinful condition, convicted, and convinced of their need for Him. Those who are against Him are said to be lost, blinded, held captive but all are to eventually be subjected to Him so that He may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15) He will abolish all rule, power, and authority, including sin's and satan's which has infected the creation. It's all about God's plan and when Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself, this indicates a kind of force, doesn't it? Who will be able to resist Him? Is darkness greater than light? is the lure and power of sin greater than the light and power of God? For a season, this mayseem to be the case but eventually every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will confess Him voluntarily, willingly, joyfully. All binders and blinders will be removed. Convicting someone of sin and convincing someone of their lost condition and convincing them of their need for God is not wrong for God to do. This is will bring glory to His name because He will defeat satan and sin in all aspects by reclaiming what is rightfully His, the creation. Satan who is said to be the god of this age and who has blinded individuals and who has taken individuals captive according to the scriptures, will be ultimately defeated. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-06-2008 at 02:30 PM..
Christians say God knows everything that is going to happen...why, oh, why are we then punished by an eternity of Hell when we don't believe in a Christian God (I am not an atheist). Did God know when we were born or conceived what our beliefs would be? It's too contrary to even wrap my brain around. And now He might "limit" his foreknowledge? Where did that come from?
All Christian do not hold to the belief that God will punish people for all of eternity. I believe that the punishment is for a season and for a higher purpose, and that it is not eternal. God bless.
I believe that all will voluntarily, willingly love God when they are confronted with their need for Him.
.. but they don't!
This reminds me of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man begs that someone will rise from the dead and warn his brothers. He is told that if his brothers do not listen to the living prophets, neither will they listen if someone rises from the dead.
God is already confronting all with their need of him:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
He's already doing all He will do.. there is nothing more He will do for us beyond the grave. He does not need to.. He is able to reach everyone sufficiently that no one will have excuse. To not believe this is to underestimate His power and omnipresence.. yet this unbelief is at the core of universal teaching.
Every single one of us can have this relationship now... praise God!
He's already doing all He will do.. there is nothing more He will do for us beyond the grave.
That's not biblical either. Read 1 Cor 15:24-28.
Quote:
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
he last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
But they will, cg81. The resistance is for temporarily because satan is ultimately defeated.
Quote:
This reminds me of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where the rich man begs that someone will rise from the dead and warn his brothers. He is told that if his brothers do not listen to the living prophets, neither will they listen if someone rises from the dead.
Evidently they will one day believe if all will bow before Him and confess Him willingly, joyfully.
Quote:
God is already confronting all with their need of him:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
He's already doing all He will do.. there is nothing more He will do for us beyond the grave. He does not need to.. He is able to reach everyone sufficiently that no one will have excuse. To not believe this is to underestimate His power and omnipresence.. yet this unbelief is at the core of universal teaching.
Every single one of us can have this relationship now... praise God!
I don't believe that satan, sin, and their power will have an eternal influence on the creation, cg81. There will come a time when according to 1 Cor. 15, all will be subjected to Him so that He may be all in all. The creation is to be delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God according to Romans 8. God is calling us today, yes, but all will not heed the call today. Many will suffer the consequences of rejecting God, but according to Ephesians 1, all are to reunited in Jesus Christ, so this tells me that there will be complete restoration.
Quote:
To not believe this is to underestimate His power and omnipresence.. yet this unbelief is at the core of universal teaching
I believe that God's power and omnipresence reaches beyond the death, which is an enemy to be defeated according to 1 Cor. 15.
God bless.
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