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For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Course, I could just as easily have claimed you had a flawed question but I wanted to upfront and honorable about the matter. We'll let it go at that, Paul. I never really expected a yes or no from you because I knew that you were cooked either way, so to speak. No hard feelings, I hope. We're all on the same team--we just play different positions and occasionally teammates collide.
So... does that mean you are going to explain what part of my scenario/post is not according to scripture? or what?
Course, I could just as easily have claimed you had a flawed question but I wanted to upfront and honorable about the matter. We'll let it go at that, Paul. I never really expected a yes or no from you because I knew that you were cooked either way, so to speak. No hard feelings, I hope. We're all on the same team--we just play different positions and occasionally teammates collide.
I can't say Yes or No to a question that isn't valid to begin with. Again, your promoting a doctrine that is contrary to Christ in that it teaches of the Eternal Reign of Sin. You protect your doctrine with irrationality. Shame on me for toss these pearls your way.
My opinion is that Thrillobyte prefers darkness over light. To his darkness we should leave him. He obviously hasn't been given a heart that seeks the Truth.
I have heard this same argument from ETers as well, many time on this forum from some of the regular defenders of Eternal Torture.
It seems obvious to me that this argument is only evidence of the greed, and extortion, and violence in the hearts of those people. They are greedy and their salvation is of no value to them, even with added rewards for faith and good works, if God eventually reconciles all humanity to himself. THe greed is very obvious. The spirit of Greed says to those whom it rules, "what is the point of being rich if everyone is rich? One can only truly be rich if most others are poor". Its the same concept only spiritual. It is greedy elitism in all its unrefined inglorious filth ...
THe violence is less obvious because they pretend to be loving and so worried about others when in fact they delight in the idea, of others suffering literal torture for all eternity, in their most inward parts. The idea gives them a truly grim sense of satisfaction, and that is obvious because they argue it is the just recompense for not only terrible and heinous actions, but for a lack of knowledge and or faith as well. You could be a loving person and be agnostic or of some other religion and your just as deserving of eternal torture as Hitler is. Some try to say, "when it(the bible) says unbelievers it really only means the really bad people" ... but that is just another way of asnwering their own Guilt even in light of the obvious scriptural contradictions that brings up.
The extortion is also obvious in the way that ET is used to threaten others into subjegation and in order to subvert independant thought even among the believing laity. It is in their hearts a way of extorting God as well. They are saying in their hearts to God, "if you are going to eventually reconcile everyone, then im not going to serve you and im going to live in sin as well ..." This shows that they make clean the outside of the cup. They live according to the law they believe justifies them and works out their salvation. But in their hearts they are still full of sin and disbelief, which is evident from their arguments. They do not believe because they are thankful for the free gift of salvation. They say they "believe", but in reality they are ruled not by faith but by fear, and greed, and violence, and bigotry.
It is obviously the spirit of the Pharisees.
I came to very similar conclusions when I first began to consider the UR viewpoint. In fact, it wasn't until I came to this understanding that I was able to realize within myself my own desperate need for true salvation. Before, I only saw earthly righteousness as a means to an end. I won't sin now so I can go to heaven later. Then I became terrified that the slightest unrepentant sin, despite my best efforts otherwise, would doom me for eternity.
The problem is that, well for me, belief in ET is only partially effective, You have the acts without the true heart behind them- which is better than no acts at all I guess. But while I was trying to be saved from ET, my desire to sin never changed, only my reluctance to act on it. It wasn't until I considered the UR perspective that I understood more clearly the beauty of salvation in the flesh- a first taste of the glory of God's kingdom. I would encourage ET believers who are struggling with sin (because if claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us) to take a few minutes to consider the earthly implications of sin, on yourself and on others. It might change your heart : )
I came to very similar conclusions when I first began to consider the UR viewpoint. In fact, it wasn't until I came to this understanding that I was able to realize within myself my own desperate need for true salvation. Before, I only saw earthly righteousness as a means to an end. I won't sin now so I can go to heaven later. Then I became terrified that the slightest unrepentant sin, despite my best efforts otherwise, would doom me for eternity.
The problem is that, well for me, belief in ET is only partially effective, You have the acts without the true heart behind them- which is better than no acts at all I guess. But while I was trying to be saved from ET, my desire to sin never changed, only my reluctance to act on it. It wasn't until I considered the UR perspective that I understood more clearly the beauty of salvation in the flesh- a first taste of the glory of God's kingdom. I would encourage ET believers who are struggling with sin (because if claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us) to take a few minutes to consider the earthly implications of sin, on yourself and on others. It might change your heart : )
From a UR standpoint it makes Christ's gift even that much more beautiful. Not that it wasn't beautiful before.
We'd exted our hand to a friend or a loved one. Even a neutral stranger on the street.....but how often to we really extend our selves to our enemies. I believe that's what Christ did and demonstrated on the cross.
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
He even demonstrated it when he prayed to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him.
Exactly, and it becomes so much easier to love both God and Christ fully when we realize that they, and not Satan, are the full and true victors in the battle between Good and Evil. How much more can we trust someone who we know to be supremely successful in pursuing all that is good and loving and true! It even gives us the audacious thought that we, too, can begin to triumph over the evil of this world, rather than partially suppress it by strictly adhering to our doctrines.
I came to very similar conclusions when I first began to consider the UR viewpoint. In fact, it wasn't until I came to this understanding that I was able to realize within myself my own desperate need for true salvation. Before, I only saw earthly righteousness as a means to an end. I won't sin now so I can go to heaven later. Then I became terrified that the slightest unrepentant sin, despite my best efforts otherwise, would doom me for eternity.
The problem is that, well for me, belief in ET is only partially effective, You have the acts without the true heart behind them- which is better than no acts at all I guess. But while I was trying to be saved from ET, my desire to sin never changed, only my reluctance to act on it. It wasn't until I considered the UR perspective that I understood more clearly the beauty of salvation in the flesh- a first taste of the glory of God's kingdom. I would encourage ET believers who are struggling with sin (because if claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us) to take a few minutes to consider the earthly implications of sin, on yourself and on others. It might change your heart : )
I am not saying that everyone who believes in Eternal torture and the paga myth of hell feel the way of those who argue the merits of the false doctrine themselves. Many people only believe what they are told and do not have the mental faculties to solve the spiritual mysteries presented by means of the scriptures. Especially because of issues of bad translations and centuries of indoctrination.
Its just that i have noticed those who defend the tenants of the established traditional system of belief among fundamentalist and orthodox Christians in the world today seem to be the ones most threatened by
the truth of Gods plan to reconcile all things. They go to extreme lengths to prove their doctrine only to contradict themselves on so many levels. Like the fact that they are dualists in reality, who believe the evil will have everlasting power over most of Humanity. They believe evil exists outside of God or is the absence of God. But when you ask them if they believe God is omnipresent they answer affimative and act like its a stupid question. How can God be omnipresent and there be some place where he is not? Its subtle things like this that the whole doctrine of Eternal torture is made up of. It all a house of cards ... They really dont have a leg to stand on when you get the translations right.
In the organized fundamentalist orthodox religions of the world, you'll do well to leave your brain at the door if you want to be accepted. All the sudden logic and reason mean nothing and the land of faery becomes reality where up is really down and left is really right and you just have to accept it because "Gods ways are not mans ways" (The single most missunderstood piece of scriptural wisdom of all time) ...
When you start asking tough questions and pulling at the loose strings the house of cards comes crumbling down quite easily. That is when these people began talking about holyness and justice, when it is obvious they dont have really a clue what those things actually are ...
Organized religion around the world like every other power and princiality and authority, will be done away with including this false Gospel of death and eternal evil form of Christianity ... Gods IS the savior of all men ... God will have all men be saved. Their threats and ravings of torture and hell fire will Not change the glory of God which IS the FACT that he is the savior of all ... But nothing ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-09-2009 at 05:52 PM..
I am not saying that everyone who believes in Eternal torture and the paga myth of hell feel the way of those who argue the merits of the false doctrine themselves. Many people only believe what they are told and do not have the mental faculties to solve the spiritual mysteries presented by means of the scriptures. Especially because of issues of bad translations and centuries of indoctrination.
Its just that i have noticed those who defend the tenants of the established traditional system of belief among fundamentalist and orthodox Christians in the world today seem to be the ones most threatened by
the truth of Gods plan to reconcile all things. They go to extreme lengths to prove their doctrine only to contradict themselves on so many levels. Like the fact that they are dualists in reality, who believe the evil will have everlasting power over most of Humanity. They believe evil exists outside of God or is the absence of God. But when you ask them if they believe God is omnipresent they answer affimative and act like its a stupid question. How can God be omnipresent and there be some place where he is not? Its subtle things like this that the whole doctrine of Eternal torture is made up of. It all a house of cards ... They really dont have a leg to stand on when you get the translations right.
In the organized fundamentalist orthodox religions of the world, you'll do well to leave your brain at the door if you want to be accepted. All the sudden logic and reason mean nothing and the land of faery becomes reality where up is really down and left is really right and you just have to accept it because "Gods ways are not mans ways" (The single most missunderstood piece of scriptural wisdom of all time) ...
When you start asking tough questions and pulling at the loose strings the house of cards comes crumbling down quite easily. That is when these people began talking about holyness and justice, when it is obvious they dont have really a clue what those things actually are ...
Organized religion around the world like every other power and princiality and authority, will be done away with including this false Gospel of death and eternal evil form of Christianity ... Gods IS the savior of all men ... God will have all men be saved. Their threats and ravings of torture and hell fire will Not change the glory of God which IS the FACT that he is the savior of all ... But nothing ...
Very eloquently stated.
I would add that when ET falls and you still want to deny people access to your heaven... you turn to annihilation thereby negating the fact that the people were there to begin with!
Like the fact that they are dualists in reality, who believe the evil will have everlasting power over most of Humanity. They believe evil exists outside of God or is the absence of God. But when you ask them if they believe God is omnipresent they answer affimative and act like its a stupid question. How can God be omnipresent and there be some place where he is not? Its subtle things like this that the whole doctrine of Eternal torture is made up of. It all a house of cards ... They really dont have a leg to stand on when you get the translations right.
g ...
This is true, and I think the ET doctrine is the very concept that keeps them in fear of considering many aspects of the UR perspective. But if the presence of evil wasn't in accordance with God's ULTIMATE plan, how did it come to be? To assert that anything exists outside the realm of God's creation is to imply that God does not have supreme control over his own universe- and if this is so, then we SHOULD all be very afraid.
I think, while a lot of our scriptural confusion lies in the meaning of the word "aion". Some, too, comes from the very beginning- Genesis.
Many look at the original sin as an event that thwarted God's initial purpose in creating mankind. It seems to be presented as though God never intended for "the forbidden fruit" to be eaten, and that in doing so man and Satan somehow managed, by Adam's God-given "free-will" to ultimately defeat the benevolent purpose of their own creator. But, If none of this was foreknown by God, why would he have created the tree in the first place- or given Adam and Eve the free will to eat from it? Surely God could have destroyed Satan from the very beginning, but he didn't, and the UR perspective shows why.
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