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First of all, I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was the son of God and died on the cross to save man from his sins. However, I recently got into a discussion with someone with whom I disagreed with on whether or not a person with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ could achieve salvation. The scenario was, "could a person who lived on a remote island somewhere, who lived a good, honest life (just as instructed in the words of the Bible), but who had no access to the Word of God still go to heaven?" I believe that the Bible serves as instructions on how we should live our lives according to the Holy Spirit, but I don't think God is so selective that He'd exclude those who just didn't know, but lived the life He intended. I also believe that man is falliable and since the actual Bible has suffered through so many translations and interpretations at the hands of man, I find it difficult to take literal translations. Before you get upset with me, please note again the intro at the top of the page.
Anyway, so in the course of this discussion with what turned out to be with a rather fanatical person who did not share my openmindedness, my salvation was questioned and I was called a heretic b/c my "degree in philosphy and religion taught me to defend man's continual discredit of the Bible".
So, what is it? Does it not matter that I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit? Do I have to believe a literal interpretation of a book that was translated and influenced by the monarchy commissioning the translation and interpreted by different denominations in order to reach salvation? If so, then which version is the right version?
The person who accused me of being a heretic is supposed to be a Christian. She certainly has not convinced me of wanting to break bread with her by casting judgment on me.
Two points:
1.)Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The word "Raca" in the English, is an expression of showing disgust with a person, when it isn't merited. It is a mild form of slander, as used in those days, and could get you in trouble.
The word "fool" in the Greek is "moros", one considered a wicked reprobate, lacking all spiritual and divine knowledge and values. They are totally void of all spiritual interest, and given totally to the devil. The fool is one that is totally sold out to the world with no hope of salvation.
So when a person says another doesn't have salvation or no hope of salvation they are in essence calling that person a 'fool.'
We can and are to judge a persons fruit, but not their salvation. That jugment belongs only to God.
2.)Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by *hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
*This word hearing means to hear with understanding.
1.)Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The word "Raca" in the English, is an expression of showing disgust with a person, when it isn't merited. It is a mild form of slander, as used in those days, and could get you in trouble.
The word "fool" in the Greek is "moros", one considered a wicked reprobate, lacking all spiritual and divine knowledge and values. They are totally void of all spiritual interest, and given totally to the devil. The fool is one that is totally sold out to the world with no hope of salvation.
So when a person says another doesn't have salvation or no hope of salvation they are in essence calling that person a 'fool.'
We can and are to judge a persons fruit, but not their salvation. That jugment belongs only to God.
2.)Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by *hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
*This word hearing means to hear with understanding.
Thank you Mike, I found this helpful, but aren't we still relying on a particular denominations interpretation of that word?
Denominations were never authorized by the word of God. They came about because of the neverending disagreements concerning this or that doctrine.
You really need to find an independent doctrinally oriented nondenominational church that you can agree with. Does that guarantee that what they are teaching is accurate? No. But they are out there. At some point you have to trust someone. God has given the gift of pastor/teacher to certain men in order to communicate the word of God, and He sees to it in every generation that there are doctrinally oriented Churches where you can get accurate teaching. If you wish,I can direct message you a list of churches whose pastors I listen to and trust. They are churches that put their classes to their congregations on the internet.I am not allowed to post them on the forum itself, but I don't think the moderator would have a problem with a direct message if you ask for it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-30-2009 at 01:54 PM..
It is my thinking that as far as our mortal lives are concerned, we will be judged at least partially by how well we kept the laws we were aware of. As a crude example, I think of a man born to a tribe of cannibals in which the law was that it was ok to eat humans from another tribe but not from one's own tribe. If that man kept that law, then I think it might play a factor in his judgment.
However, it is my belief that between the time of the death of our physical body and the resurrection, we reside in a temporary world of spirits ("Paradise" or "Spirit Prison") in which everyone will have an opportunity to hear the pure doctrines taught by Jesus Christ and his Apostles, and to accept, ignore, or deny them. Eternal progress will depend on our choices.
Unfortunately you use the word Christian to describe believers and thus those who are saved...
Yes, all Christians are believers, and are therefore saved.
Non-Believers are lost.
This is why Jesus gave us the "Great Commission".
If non-believers are still saved then the Great Commission is a joke and unnecessary.
The fact that Jesus instituted this commandment to take his word into the whole world , teaching people and making them believers proves to us the true need of this action in God's eyes....
The Bible translations were not done by "denominations". It is as Mike said, the Bible translations are all pretty much the same, and God can speak to anyone through any of them.
The bible translations are not the same. There are a certain words that have indeed been mistranslated that make all the difference to understanding God and his plan for mankind. One should stick to more literal translations However, that is too much work for some people so they just accept whatever is taught to them by their church or the popular teaching of the culture.
Quote:
(You may go to a denominational church, (as I do), but you don't have to rely on strictly that denomination's interpretation to teach you....if you have the Holy Spirit, He will teach you. I don't agree with my denomination or even my pastor on some interpretations of scripture, but we do agree on the important part....salvation by Jesus Christ. I let the other stuff roll off my back, and if I'm wrong and they're right, I trust God to teach me that.
Sadly, most people do rely on the teachings of their church and peers. If you don`t use a more literally interpreted bible,study on early church history,and do lots of cross checking with a concordance, you can become indoctrinated into the popular mass teaching. Denominational religion is cultish in their practices. JMO
My best advice to you is to read your bible and pray everyday to know if you are a Christian and stop listening to sheep and goats in this forum. It will only confuse you
I'm confused. I thought that Christians were compared to sheep? Anyhow if it is between sheep and goats....sheep are stupid. Not a very bright animal.
And since when did god give you the power to discern a sheep and a goat?!
"All Hail Judge Fundy!!!"
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I believe that the Bible serves as instructions on how we should live our lives according to the Holy Spirit, but I don't think God is so selective that He'd exclude those who just didn't know, but lived the life He intended. I also believe that man is falliable and since the actual Bible has suffered through so many translations and interpretations at the hands of man, I find it difficult to take literal translations. Before you get upset with me, please note again the intro at the top of the page. 
