The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (Kingdom, Jacob)
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Right on...peace to you as well brother...and I do love you too, but...just to let you in on a little something....if Satan wants to steal our liberty, and even him, according to the UR doctrine, will be redeemed as well, how is this possible?
All things are possible for God. Paul stole not only the liberty of countless innocent men women and children, he also stole their lives. Yet God renewed him ... What about Nebuchadnezzar? He was one of the most vile men ever to have lived who tortured people and burned them alive just as you think God will and does do, but God had mercy on him and redeemed him so that he served the Lord at the end of his life.
The problem with your understanding as i see it is that you think God has double standards. You think that he tells us to love our enemies and to bless those who persecute us but that he does not love his enemies and that he curses those that are against him. You don't torture someone that you love ... Perhaps you just cant understand that yet because you haven't learned what love really is yet.
Rev 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
I trust he will do what he has promised. I trust he will indeed make all things new, not a few things, not some things, not most things .... ALL THINGS. And i have faith in his promise and i proclaim it to be the truth.
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Also, another little words of the wise, Satan has already been defeated.
He has been cast in the lake of fire and brimstone....to be tortured forever and ever...aionios.....aion aion, as the Lord reigns for ever and ever:
I have a word for you, you are wrong, he is still in the world and i know this from personal experience. Yes Christ has already won the victory, but his plans have not yet been fully consummated. When his plans have been fulfilled you and everyone else will know it without any doubt, because every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Christ is lord in heaven and ON EARTH, and this obviously has not happened yet though you don't realize it obviously. In my opinion this is another thing you will just have to learn the hard way(or in the long run). And i have already established that aion nor aionios or aionion do not mean eternal, never have and never will(except for in the minds of ignorant people or people who simply want it to mean that) despite you denial of the fact.
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And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Satan's influence is still around, I will never doubt that for one minute, just as Hitler and Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot's influence still exists, but his power, has been destroyed. He already fell from Heaven as the scriptures states in Jesus' own words, and his short time was already placed and held duration as he decieved the nations from 67-70 AD, and with Mystery Babylon, Apostate Israel, that who was responsible for the blood of the prophets and saints from Abel to Paul of Tarsus and Peter, was cast into the fire, the Hellfire, aion aion.
Only the future can tell, somehow i think your going to be very surprised ....
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End game. Peace out.
Indeed ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-30-2009 at 06:06 PM..
Weak in my faith? LOL..I have been a Christian for a long time, but never fully submitted to His will.
I was saved at 13 BTW...but backslid, like many do, which never means you aren't saved. Many people are like this, including yourself from what I have seen so far.
It is not my intention to cause you to stumble. However, i am not going to sit around and let people tarnish the name of the true God any longer without speaking what i have come to know to be the truth about him and his love for everyone and his complete victory over sin and death for his entire creation. I know one day you will understand, until then, may God be with you and keep you.
I am not going to let you defile the work Christ did, and the steadfast work our loving apostle brothers in Christ have worked so hard in their journey, seeing Him with their own eyes, and preserving themsleves from the flesh. He already has been the victor over sin and death, and one day my friend, you will see this truth, when you take your last breath, and NEVER feel the sting of death.
All things are possible for God. Paul stole not only the liberty of countless innocent men women and children, he also stole their lives. Yet God renewed him ... What about Nebuchadnezzar? He was one of the most vile men ever to have lived who tortured people and burned them alive just as you think God will and does do, but God had mercy on him and redeemed him so that he served the Lord at the end of his life.
He also fell back away from the Lord, or haven't you read that part, or just missed it because it didn't fit with your paradigm.
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The problem with your understanding as i see it is that you think God has double standards. You think that he tells us to love our enemies and to bless those who persecute us but that he does not love his enemies and that he curses those that are against him. You don't torture someone that you love ... Perhaps you just cant understand that yet because you haven't learned what love really is yet.
You toture those that deny the very work He did for us. That is His nature, or haven't you read the scripture enough? God is loving, but He is also just and rules with a rod of IRON. Too bad you are blind to that.
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Rev 21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Accomplished...in the church....the New Covenant already realized.
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I trust he will do what he has promised. I trust he will indeed make all things new, not a few things, not some things, not most things .... ALL THINGS. And i have faith in his promise and i proclaim it to be the truth.
All things have already been accomplished.
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I have a word for you, you are wrong, he is still in the world and i know this from personal experience. Yes Christ has already won the victory, but his plans have not yet been full consummated. In my opinion this is another thimg you will just have to learn the hard way. And i have already established that aion nor aionios or aionion do not mean eternal, never have and never will(except for in the minds of ignorant people or people who simply want it to mean that) despite you denial of the fact.
Accomplished and FULLY consummated. You need to pray fervently to understad the Revaltion of Jesus Christ...as I have.
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Only the future can tell, somehow i think your going to be very surprised ....
I am already surprised, being a futurist for many years, now Full Preterist because I got on my knees continuously and asked for the very same revelation my grandmother instilled in me from the time I was little.
Your interpretation of the scripture is in serious error, becasue, first, you are a futurist, and second, you are a Universalist. That my friend, is a double standard. I will pray for you, as I do for all my futurist friends.
I am not going to let you defile the work Christ did, and the steadfast work our loving apostle brothers in Christ have worked so hard in their journey, seeing Him with their own eyes, and preserving themsleves from the flesh. He already has been the victor over sin and death, and one day my friend, you will see this truth, when you take your last breath, and NEVER feel the sting of death.
You say he won the victory over sin and death, but then you say that sin and death have won the victory over most of Gods creation ...
If most people for all time are dead because of sin, then sin has won the far greater victory and not God. I don't know why you cant see this, but it is staring you in the face.
He also fell back away from the Lord, or haven't you read that part, or just missed it because it didn't fit with your paradigm.
You toture those that deny the very work He did for us. That is His nature, or haven't you read the scripture enough? God is loving, but He is also just and rules with a rod of IRON. Too bad you are blind to that.
Accomplished...in the church....the New Covenant already realized.
All things have already been accomplished.
Accomplished and FULLY consummated. You need to pray fervently to understad the Revaltion of Jesus Christ...as I have.
I am already surprised, being a futurist for many years, now Full Preterist because I got on my knees continuously and asked for the very same revelation my grandmother instilled in me from the time I was little.
Your interpretation of the scripture is in serious error, becasue, first, you are a futurist, and second, you are a Universalist. That my friend, is a double standard. I will pray for you, as I do for all my futurist friends.
My goodness your words are a real window to your heart and soul ...
First of all as far as i remember, the last words spoken by Nebuchadnezzar as recorded in the bible were ...
Dan 4:37
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Do you care to provide the scripture or scriptures which prove he fell away again after this? I do not recall them ...
You said ...
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You torture those that deny the very work He did for us. That is His nature, or haven't you read the scripture enough? God is loving, but He is also just and rules with a rod of IRON. Too bad you are blind to that.
This is why i feel sorry for you, because you actually believe that torture is a good thing. That it brings God glory or pleasure or whatever you think God gets out of torturing people ... When God himself said he takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, you say he tortures them because it is his nature to torture people.
You are very lost if you think Gods nature is to torture anyone.
This is blasphemy in my opinion, of God, the father, and of the holy spirit, and of Christ ...
You say he won the victory over sin and death, but then you say that sin and death have won the victory over most of Gods creation ...
When did I say this? He won sin and death for those in Christ...read 1 Cor 15 again
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If most people for all time are dead because of sin, then sin has won the far greater victory and not God. I don't know why you cant see this, but it is staring you in the face.
My goodness your words are a real window to your heart and soul ...
First of all as far as i remember, the last words spoken by Nebuchadnezzar as recorded in the bible were ...
Dan 4:37
Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Do you care to provide the scripture or scriptures which prove he fell away again after this? I do not recall them ...
My apologies...I was referring to his son Belshazzar.
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You said ...
This is why i feel sorry for you, because you actually believe that torture is a good thing. That it brings God glory or pleasure or whatever you think God gets out of torturing people ... When God himself said he takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, you say he tortures them because it is his nature to torture people.
You are very lost if you think Gods nature is to torture anyone.
Last I checked, in more places to count, God shows His anger and Zeal for those who disregard Him. Nebu came to Him in his life, not after life, so what is your point concerning him anyway?
Ironmaw, the scripture is plain, why do you deny what His nature is.
He is loving, but He is just...what is so hard in understanding this?
The wicked will be destroyed...simple as that...what is so hard here?
My apologies...I was referring to his son Belshazzar.
Last I checked, in more places to count, God shows His anger and Zeal for those who disregard Him. Nebu came to Him in his life, not after life, so what is your point concerning him anyway?
Ironmaw, the scripture is plain, why do you deny what His nature is.
He is loving, but He is just...what is so hard in understanding this?
The wicked will be destroyed...simple as that...what is so hard here?
Micks.. a quick question. What is justice to you? Perhaps you and Ironmaw define Justice differently...
Why does God being just = the wicked being destroyed ? . I cannnot fathom why you automatically believe God's justice means death, destruction,torture and other thing that remotely comes close to any of these things.
And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man. 1 Chronicles 21 :13
You are obviously getting Man's and God Justice mixed up
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