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So then you are saying that God is NOT victorious??
That He will NOT be "all in all"?
That not EVERY knee will bow and not EVERY tongue will confess (swear ALLEGIANCE TO) Christ?
That God is limited somehow??
The CREATOR of the universe will not have what HE desires????
I am not saying God will not be victorious - or won't be all in all. Every tongue will confess regardless of their location. God does limit Himself in that He works through our freewill most of the time instead of us like puppets.
Regarding His desires - consider...
Adam was given instructions in the garden - was it God's desire for him to keep the command?
Was it God's desire after 1600 years to restart the human race by means of a worldwide flood?
Was it God's desire for His people, whom He delivered from the slavery of Egypt, to build and worship golden calves?
Was it God's desire to have 10 of 12 spies report that the promised land could not be conquered?
Was it God's desire that David have adultery and murder her husband?
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Got to be in there to get there. Some just aren't in..that's what the scripture sayeth.
And the ones that aren't in there are the non-believers.....
Let's deal with 1 Tim 2:4-6 exegetically why don't we?
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
θέλει - present indicative action of θέλω to wish or to desire with an infinitive to ἄνθρωπος an aorist passive infinitive of σῴζω...to be saved.
In compliance and infinitive with the verb θέλει - to wish and to desire as we noted above... ἐπίγνωσις - the knowledge, recognition directed at a particular object which is - ἐλθεῖν - truth. ἐλθεῖν - truth is in compliance and is in direct reference to the preceding infinitive which is the knowledge of that, in this life presently and preceding the afterlife, which is apart or separate from ἄνθρωπος - man, in the flesh.
This action is purely based on 1 Tim 2:5, in that it is needed for Christ, the mediator - μεσίτης, to be σῴζω - saved, and this only includes those ἄνθρωπος - men, living in this life presently, not after the present cf. Matt 20:28. He gave His life for a ἀντίλυτρον - ransom, the price paid for the release of a slave...
This preposition implies and compounds the need for an exchange between the two...Christ and the man, presently....not after life.
So you see, 1 Tim 2:4-6 does indeed show us that Christ did give His life for all mankind, but in this letter to Timothy, written to another Christian, Paul is compounding the necessity for mankind to receive Christ here and now, or with proper hermeneutical application, the latter 1st century men and women, and that there is a need for Him in their life in order to receive salvation....from that specific mediator Jesus Christ.
UR is a noble claim for those wanting to continue living in their sins, but a false one at that, and has rightly been usurped by the majority of theologians that have examined the various Unie claims throughout the past two millennia. You must accept Christ now, in this life, in order to receive eternal life that He ransomed His life for "all" that receive the gospel.
If you URer's even think of using 1 Tim 2:4-6 again, I will continue to repost this study I performed a few days ago, so that these threads will always have the truth imbedded into it.
Excellent post,euse. That`s really the amazing work of God. God does it all. But people in their own pride and wisdom want to take at least partial credit for being saved. They have been under the false teaching of man that says they are smart and wise enough to choose God while most everyone else who has ever lived isn`t. All the glory to God,friends. Give up your pride...God does it all.
If you notice most of the folks that believe in Universalism or Arminianism or Pelagianism seem a "tad" selfrighteous...........
So what's the point of running all over telling people about Jesus if it's god has already decided who he wants and not wants? Seems dumb.
Interesting point DaniMae1....and you're right.
Why would we bother running around the place spreading the Gospel, if everyone is going to be saved in the end...fruitless and pointless?
UR denies the purpose of the cross, denies the elect, and allows mankind to do what he pleases regardless of the consequences in life, and the after life.
You post a lot of Scripture about how God controls things - and you say 'no thank you.' Think about that. You are rejecting Scripture that you don't like. You are rejecting part of God's character that you don't like.
It's funny how you see those verses and see a mean ogre. I see those verses and think if of the grace I received. How can that be?
If God does nothing for us with regards to salvation - then no one gets saved (per Rom. 3:9). Let me say that again. If God sees your tirade above, and says 'fine - I will back off and do nothing' - then no one from that point forward will gain salvation - NO ONE.
God does not save all people. He desires all to be saved - but all are not saved.
Dust off your OT - God repeatedly desires Judah to return to Him, but they didn't - and then they were judged.
I am not saying God will not be victorious - or won't be all in all. Every tongue will confess regardless of their location. God does limit Himself in that He works through our freewill most of the time instead of us like puppets.
Regarding His desires - consider...
Adam was given instructions in the garden - was it God's desire for him to keep the command?
Was it God's desire after 1600 years to restart the human race by means of a worldwide flood?
Was it God's desire for His people, whom He delivered from the slavery of Egypt, to build and worship golden calves?
Was it God's desire to have 10 of 12 spies report that the promised land could not be conquered?
Was it God's desire that David have adultery and murder her husband?
DRob4JC,
The Bible containes law and gospel that balance themselves. UR's don't or refuse to believe that.
God's purpose for sending Jesus was to pay for the sins of the whole world, that is the good news. No one denies that truth.
What UR's don't or won't acknowledge is "never" means never...and that Gods wrath remains on him which is part of God's demand for sin.
Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
[quote=Eusebius;11717712]Well, LOL, at least in my cafeteria we eat only meat and not just pablum! LOL! Hey, DRob, come on in! The food is free. Just one request: No food fights! This steak is expensive!
No no no! I posted a lot of Scripture about how God controls things and am thankful He does. It is just that if eternal torment is true (and it isn't) and God brings people into this world knowing full well in advance that He is going to blind them and keep them from salvation and then He is going to judge them and torture them for eternity because they didn't believe in Jesus (even though they couldnt), well, I gotta tell ya friend, THAT SUCKS BIG TIME!
Hell is mentioned 23 times in the NT.....
and here is st else:
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;[SIZE=3]
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Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.[SIZE=3]
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Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
God does not save all people. He desires all to be saved - but all are not saved.
This is a very prevalent statement here on the Forum, and it's evident that God is made into a false idol - a helpless, impotent, disorganized god - by those who hold to this belief. God is not futile in His desires. He doesn't attempt to do anything, without utterly complete success. He doesn't wish - He simply makes it so.
These attributes and facts about our God and Father should stand in the face of any argument or debate concerning the interpretation of scripture, or any other "variable" about the Rock of Ages. Does He not tell us "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure", and "Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:10-11)? Does He or does He not "work all things according to the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11)?
This is not an argument for UR, as much as it is a cry from a brother for us to see our God high and lifted up. We must back away, change our minds, alter our attitudes - but consider His throne as untouchable, immovable, unshakable.
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Setting the matter to rest about 1 Tim 2
Hey, DRob, come on in! The food is free. Just one request: No food fights! This steak is expensive!
