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Old 04-27-2010, 06:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I agree with you trettep, but it is still almost impossible to determine who is the church father that was correct in their interpretation. On this forum, both ETers and URers claim the Holy Spirit, but URers claim that the writings of Origen are the most accurate in capturing the original message set by the early Church leaders while ETers push for Augustine and Jerome. In fact the foundation of both theologies seem to stem from the perspectives of these guys. Who is right? Judging from this forum, it's almost impossible to say that the Holy Spirit is leading anyone here because no one is coming to the same conclusion. What is the criteria set to properly discern who is right?
The early Church leaders themselves were wrong. Jesus constantly berated his disciples for their lack of understanding, and after his death these same people argued vehemently amongst each other. The criteria for discerning Christian doctrine is simply to study the evidence of what Christ said, and not to follow Origen, Jerome, Augustine or anyone else.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I agree with you trettep, but it is still almost impossible to determine who is the church father that was correct in their interpretation. On this forum, both ETers and URers claim the Holy Spirit, but URers claim that the writings of Origen are the most accurate in capturing the original message set by the early Church leaders while ETers push for Augustine and Jerome. In fact the foundation of both theologies seem to stem from the perspectives of these guys. Who is right? Judging from this forum, it's almost impossible to say that the Holy Spirit is leading anyone here because no one is coming to the same conclusion. What is the criteria set to properly discern who is right?
Nero777, it really isn't hard to determine. If you know the nature of the Spirit then you see it where it is. I know that many claim to have the Holy Spirit but the Truth Nero777 is that very few really knokw what the Holy Spirit is. This is all very logical and rational for those that want to really study it. The problem is that we get very illogical and irrational idealogy about what the Spirit is.

I believe that what Jesus taught is very different from what mainstream "Christianity" teaches today.

Augustine of Hippo shows in that writing how rational and logical his approach is to his arguments from the scriptures. But more importanly they are in line with the Spirit.
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Nero777, it really isn't hard to determine. If you know the nature of the Spirit then you see it where it is. I know that many claim to have the Holy Spirit but the Truth Nero777 is that very few really knokw what the Holy Spirit is. This is all very logical and rational for those that want to really study it. The problem is that we get very illogical and irrational idealogy about what the Spirit is.

I believe that what Jesus taught is very different from what mainstream "Christianity" teaches today.

Augustine of Hippo shows in that writing how rational and logical his approach is to his arguments from the scriptures. But more importanly they are in line with the Spirit.
I know trettep, i know. It is just a problem for me to see so many Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit and yet none of us can come to the same conclusion other than that Christ is Lord (not that notion is a minute thing in any way).
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Toni Sherente View Post
The early Church leaders themselves were wrong. Jesus constantly berated his disciples for their lack of understanding, and after his death these same people argued vehemently amongst each other. The criteria for discerning Christian doctrine is simply to study the evidence of what Christ said, and not to follow Origen, Jerome, Augustine or anyone else.
I know Toni. I don't believe we should follow those guys either; we should simply follow Christ. The reason I ask about them is because so much of the arguments between ETers and URers stem from what these guys believe. URers say that Origen's beliefs centered around universal salvation for all and use that for their argument to support universal salvation while ETers believe that Origen was subjected to gnostic theologies and that we can only look to what Jerome and Augustine proposed. And the only reason we do is because they had a better understanding of what the earlier church was like than what we could ever hope to imagine, so it is natural that our understanding of the early church would be best understood through such men, though I don't believe so. I too believe that we should look to Christ, but, given the issue of language and potential mistranslations, it's hard to know what Christ truly intended with His messages and sermons.
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
I know Toni. I don't believe we should follow those guys either; we should simply follow Christ. The reason I ask about them is because so much of the arguments between ETers and URers stem from what these guys believe. URers say that Origen's beliefs centered around universal salvation for all and use that for their argument to support universal salvation while ETers believe that Origen was subjected to gnostic theologies and that we can only look to what Jerome and Augustine proposed. And the only reason we do is because they had a better understanding of what the earlier church was like than what we could ever hope to imagine, so it is natural that our understanding of the early church would be best understood through such men, though I don't believe so. I too believe that we should look to Christ, but, given the issue of language and potential mistranslations, it's hard to know what Christ truly intended with His messages and sermons.
Agreed. Christ's messages and sermons were not simple, and are subject to mistranslations and misinterpretations, but they are the best thing we have. If Christ said nothing about a particular issue, then I do not consider there is a 'correct' or 'incorrect' Christian belief about it.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:58 AM
 
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But what if you found a teaching that none of the Early Church fathers disagreed on? If they all agreed on something..would you?
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DNick View Post
But what if you found a teaching that none of the Early Church fathers disagreed on? If they all agreed on something..would you?
Who are these Early Church fathers? How were they accorded this status? And was there anything they agreed on?
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Well, I believe this document by Augustine is definately Truth. I know there are others that embrace it also that are not universalists. But I think that to embrace that document and to say that your not a universalist seems a bit contrary. In fact, I'm not sure people would consider Augustine of Hippo a universalist but I don't see how he couldn't be based on his analysis of God's Word.
Paul, Augustine of Hippo, the Manichean convert to Christianity, was certainly no universalst. He was one of the main teachers who made hell and the doctrine of ET what they are today, and eternal torment. He even taught that unbaptized babies go to hell if they die.
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Toni Sherente View Post
Who are these Early Church fathers? How were they accorded this status? And was there anything they agreed on?
They're just the people who wrote writings of the early Christians. We have writings from all time periods. From just after Jesus, to now. Usually the ones written before 500ad is what I consider the Fathers. I use the term loosely, no has sat down and decided who the The Early Church Fathers. But like some were taught by the Apostles themselves. And yes, they agreed on many things.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Paul, Augustine of Hippo, the Manichean convert to Christianity, was certainly no universalst. He was one of the main teachers who made hell and the doctrine of ET what they are today, and eternal torment. He even taught that unbaptized babies go to hell if they die.
Ironmaw1776 - I detect something in this particular writing that tells me that he couldn't have had both positions. There had to be something tainted somewhere.
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