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It is true that I once used the mistranslation argument, but I realized that there was more to the words being used so I do not maintain the stance that there are any significant mistranslations and we can learn from them all.
I also have never written a comment saying Heaven is eternal. so the point does not apply to me.
Everyone has a motive, it can be a good one or a bad one.
My motive is to share what I believe in such a way that I draw challenges to what I believe.
I pointed out a difference between having a basis for believing something and proof. They can be mutually exclusive, but proof can be a basis; having a basis for something is not necessarily proof.
Which do you expect people to present?
What I expected was to have a level playing field. There is no evidence or "proof" of heaven other than what is described in the Bible. I was wondering just how those who say UR is true defined it by not arguing against the word meaning of "eternal" or hell.
In short, I want to see how many are not hypocrates. Can they answer questions about heaven they same way they expect answers about hell.
So what if Jesus said something about heaven, Jesus used many terms describing heaven..why does that mean it exists? Yet, when Jesus used just as many terms and descriptions and warnings about hell ... but it doesn't exist or not eternally (so they claim).
I'm told my God is a monster, I worship Satan, I love to see people burn.....ok. I'm told I have no love.....ok. Then tell me the "loving" view and I'll respond using the same arguments and demands that is expect of me (and others).
So when they claim a verse to be the truth, I'll ask why....just because Jesus said it, that hasn't been good enough before. I want to know where is the hope in heaven not being eternal [everlasting].
This is exactly what I have been thinking. If some parts have been mistranslated, why do they believe in the Bible at all? Who says the rest isn't mistranslated? I think all universalists should answer this question because it's definitely valid.
Oops! I didn't see the other thread on mistranslations.
Thanks. I'm tired of presenting things as the "truth" and being told my God is a monster simply because Jesus said it. So I want to know why heaven exists, why would heaven be eternal if eternal isn't forever, everlasting, everlasting life or whatever term\description Jesus used.
The Bible has many picturesque descriptions of heaven, eternal life and terms used by Jesus and other writers. We're supposed to believe it simply because.....well ok. Yet the same Jesus and other writers in the Bible used picturesque descriptions of hell and warnings but....(you know the story line).
Ilene wright says there's hope in the message..... I want to see the "gospel", the "hope" in a heaven under the same terms.
I'm waiting to see the hope that teaches a heaven that isn't eternal (clearly temporary), a Jesus who speaks in half\truths. I want to know...is this just another "monster"?
What I expected was to have a level playing field. There is no evidence or "proof" of heaven other than what is described in the Bible. I was wondering just how those who say UR is true defined it by not arguing against the word meaning of "eternal" or hell.
In short, I want to see how many are not hypocrates. Can they answer questions about heaven they same way they expect answers about hell.
So what if Jesus said something about heaven, Jesus used many terms describing heaven..why does that mean it exists? Yet, when Jesus used just as many terms and descriptions and warnings about hell ... but it doesn't exist or not eternally (so they claim).
I'm told my God is a monster, I worship Satan, I love to see people burn.....ok. I'm told I have no love.....ok. Then tell me the "loving" view and I'll respond using the same arguments and demands that is expect of me (and others).
So when they claim a verse to be the truth, I'll ask why....just because Jesus said it, that hasn't been good enough before. I want to know where is the hope in heaven not being eternal [everlasting].
Twin, I wish I could get through to your mind on this matter. Jesus never used the word "hell." The only word He used is Gehenna. Gehenna will be reinstituted as a trash dump only during the millennial kingdom. He warned people alot about that place where there will be fires burning up the city of Jerusalem's offal and where the fires are not the worms will be at work. Get it?
Also, there are two different destinies for believers. The believers like Peter, James and John and their followers will remain on the earth and enter the thousan year earthly kingdom.
The believers like Paul and Timothy and their followers have a heavenly allotment at the same time as the earthly kingdom people do.
Twin, I wish I could get through to your mind on this matter. Jesus never used the word "hell." The only word He used is Gehenna. Gehenna will be reinstituted as a trash dump only during the millennial kingdom. He warned people alot about that place where there will be fires burning up the city of Jerusalem's offal and where the fires are not the worms will be at work. Get it?
Also, there are two different destinies for believers. The believers like Peter, James and John and their followers will remain on the earth and enter the thousan year earthly kingdom.
The believers like Paul and Timothy and their followers have a heavenly allotment at the same time as the earthly kingdom people do.
Well, this isn't about hell. As I stated earlier the Bible has many picturesque descriptions of heaven, eternal life and terms used by Jesus and other writers. Why should these be anymore creditable, than the picturesque descriptions of hell, eternal damnation\death and terms used by the same people.
To say "Jesus said so" or the "Bible says this" isn't acceptable per your postion on other topics. My challange to anybody who holds to such is to then make the case for heavenly things. I will use the same arguments about heaven as you do against hell.
Are you (anybody) up to that challange?
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-12-2010 at 07:07 PM..
Reason: forgot the "ly" in heaven
There are obvious translation and interpretation issues if one examines the word "hell" objectively. Anyone can see the word "hell" is translated from 4 different words that don't all mean the same thing. Assuming references to "fire" = "hell" is simply an assumption that doesn't work when you also realize that fire is used to refine and God is a consuming fire.
There are no such interpretation issues if we look at what Jesus came to do. It is very plain: Jesus came to save the world, take away all sin, and to destroy death.
When it comes to "heaven", there are also misunderstandings, as scripture isn't specific about saying we go there. It does say that some will inherit the Kingdom of heaven and the rest will simply be subjects of the Kingdom. If you want to make specific points about "heaven", post a scripture to discuss.
None of that changes the fact that Jesus came to take away all sin and save the world. By accomplishing that all will be saved. All will be resurrected and all will be made incorruptible and immortal.
I believe heaven is a state of mind.....peace, joy, happiness, for oneself and ones we love. When Jesus has turned over the kingdom to the Father, then it will truly be heaven for all God's creation, including those clay vessels who were once 'evil' but were broken and remade by the potter.
There are obvious translation and interpretation issues if one examines the word "hell" objectively. Anyone can see the word "hell" is translated from 4 different words that don't all mean the same thing. Assuming references to "fire" = "hell" is simply an assumption that doesn't work when you also realize that fire is used to refine and God is a consuming fire.
There are no such interpretation issues if we look at what Jesus came to do. It is very plain: Jesus came to save the world, take away all sin, and to destroy death.
When it comes to "heaven", there are also misunderstandings, as scripture isn't specific about saying we go there. It does say that some will inherit the Kingdom of heaven and the rest will simply be subjects of the Kingdom. If you want to make specific points about "heaven", post a scripture to discuss.
None of that changes the fact that Jesus came to take away all sin and save the world. By accomplishing that all will be saved. All will be resurrected and all will be made incorruptible and immortal.
Legoman, you say: "By accomplishing that all will be saved. All will be resurrected and all will be made incorruptible and immortal" .. but .. scripture isn't specific about saying we go there [heaven].
Why would this be any less monstorous...being resurrected to something that isn't specific. Where the hope in that?
Legoman, you say: "By accomplishing that all will be saved. All will be resurrected and all will be made incorruptible and immortal" .. but .. scripture isn't specific about saying we go there [heaven].
Why would this be any less monstorous...being resurrected to something that isn't specific. Where the hope in that?
Do you want hope or truth? You can hope for whatever you want! The truth is that noone knows but God himself and the afterlife is not discussed in the bible... IMO it is a figment of the hopeful mind... hoping to go to heaven and hoping others go to hell
Legoman, you say: "By accomplishing that all will be saved. All will be resurrected and all will be made incorruptible and immortal" .. but .. scripture isn't specific about saying we go there [heaven].
Why would this be any less monstorous...being resurrected to something that isn't specific. Where the hope in that?
What are you talking about?
Scripture is very specific that we will be resurrected to incorruptibility and immortality. Scripture is very specific that all will bow and praise God. Scripture is very specific that God will be all in all. Scripture is very specific that God will free creation from its bondage and corruption. That's all good news, its not "monstrous".
Personal experience (with Jesus) scripture (the Bible) and Logic (Logos - reason).
I wish that Christians could understand what has been done to them.
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!" Jn. 5:39
As then - so today.
Systematic theology and Bible worship have replaced the personal knowing of God. Instead of a personal knowledge of spiritual things the scriptures are wrestled over and heretics condemned and all the while those perpetrating the "missing of the target" think they are doing God a service.
Last edited by firstborn888; 05-13-2010 at 06:11 AM..
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This is exactly what I have been thinking. If some parts have been mistranslated, why do they believe in the Bible at all? Who says the rest isn't mistranslated? I think all universalists should answer this question because it's definitely valid. 
