Light Rail - Where and how do we get started! (Cleveland: lease, hotels)

[zach_33]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

I just don't see what significant change in public opinion has happened in the last 10 years.

You may be right, but Hamilton county was +5.5% republican (52.5% Bush, 47.0% Kerry) in the 2004 presidential election, and +4.9% democrat (51.8% Obama, 46.9% Romney) in 2012, so I wouldn't completely ignore the possibility that there has been a change in public opinion there.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by zach_33

You may be right, but Hamilton county was +5.5% republican (52.5% Bush, 47.0% Kerry) in the 2004 presidential election, and +4.9% democrat (51.8% Obama, 46.9% Romney) in 2012, so I wouldn't completely ignore the possibility that there has been a change in public opinion there.

I don't consider that a telling number. Wiith the change in population, it is reasonable to expect the Democrats to gain ground, particularly in the City. But to say enough to vote to tax themseleves for rail public transit? Of course they don't vote to tax themselves, they vote to tax everybody else.

I can certainly understand there is a point where light rail makes more sense than cars. If the price of gas continues to escalate that may be enough to swing the tide. But it is not there yet.

Rail is noisy, drty, and inconvenient. Their schedule is not necessarily your schedule. You still have to get to the station. You either have a car sitting in a lot at the station doing absolutely nothing other than losing value and costing you parking, or some family member has to take you to the station and then pick you up which is an inconvenience to them. And who is going to pick up all of the trash along the rail lines? It may be an inevitable consequence of our society, but not one I relish seeing coming.

[natininja]

^ Noisy and dirty? Your post includes so much misinformation, I don't know where to start.

As for inconvenient, it doesn't have to be convenient for everyone. It just has to be convenient for enough people. If you live within a 10 minute walk of a station, it's certainly convenient for you. If you live within a 5 minute drive of a free park & ride lot, it's likely to be convenient for you, as well. If you live a 20 minute drive from the nearest park & ride, it's probably not something you'll want to use on a regular basis. But you still might like visiting some of the businesses that sprout up around that stop. And you might like all the cars that aren't on the route to where you're going because those would-be drivers are on the light rail instead.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by natininja

^ Noisy and dirty? Your post includes so much misinformation, I don't know where to start.

Yes exactly, they are nosy and dirty. May be my opiniuon against yours, but definitely is my opinion. Please explain what you consider attractive about them?

[SWOH]

Interesting discussion.

Many parts of Mason do "suburban" better than, say, Liberty Twp. There are public walking trails which go to places like the center of town.


Let's do a comparo here. $200k budget, desire for walkability, where can you live in each locale?:

Walkscore for a good walkability Mason location: (37)
Walk Score of Prescott Court Mason OH 45040

Walkscore for a good walkability Liberty Twp. location: (29)
- It should have a penalty assigned for lack of sidewalks, but I guess it is "walkable" for those who are willing to walk through weeds along a busy road...
Walk Score of Stonehenge Boulevard Butler OH 45044


Walkscore for good walkability Hamilton location: (55)
Walk Score of North D Street Hamilton OH 45013

Walkscore for Over-The-Rhine: (92)
Walk Score of 1225 Elm Street Cincinnati OH 45202

[hensleya1]

Originally Posted by zach_33

You may be right, but Hamilton county was +5.5% republican (52.5% Bush, 47.0% Kerry) in the 2004 presidential election, and +4.9% democrat (51.8% Obama, 46.9% Romney) in 2012, so I wouldn't completely ignore the possibility that there has been a change in public opinion there.

zach_33--

This closely mirrors the performance for President statewide so I'd be real careful about using those numbers. Ohio was +2.1% Republican (50.8% Bush, 48.7% Kerry) in 2004, and +3.0% Democrat in 2012 (50.7% Obama, 47.7% Romney) in 2012.

That said, Cincinnati continues to lead the region in terms of absolute population loss and singlehandedly constitutes the majority of Hamilton County's population loss.

Hamilton County dropped from 845,303 to 802,374 in that time frame (actually 2000 to 2010), with a further drop to 802,038 in 2012.
Cincinnati dropped from 331,285 to 296,945 in the same decade, with a further drop to 296,550 in 2012.

So, maybe public opinion in Cincinnati at least has changed as the makeup of the people has (as those who don't like the status quo have simply left).

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Cincinnati residents would love to tax the entire county to build a 2014 version of MetroMoves, since Cincinnati would be the primary beneficiary of such a system. Residents in most of the other three-dozen odd jurisdictions will continue to beg to differ.

If Cincinnati wants to build light rail, it will continue to have to put its money where its' mouth is, and pay up whatever cost is needed out of it's own pockets. That is including, but not limited to, the continued and rising costs of the streetcar. Interestingly enough, I haven't heard much about increasing city taxes on residents to pay for capital construction - but instead, quite a bit of enthusiasm here for a county-wide solution - presumably, so the city can stick it to those of us who dared to leave.

'Regionalism' is the new watchword for it - I wonder what the mayor of Avon thinks about regionalism when Cleveland torpedoed a proposed development unless the village 'shared' its tax revenues with Cleveland.

[CinciFan]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Rail is noisy, drty, and inconvenient. Their schedule is not necessarily your schedule. You still have to get to the station. You either have a car sitting in a lot at the station doing absolutely nothing other than losing value and costing you parking, or some family member has to take you to the station and then pick you up which is an inconvenience to them. And who is going to pick up all of the trash along the rail lines? It may be an inevitable consequence of our society, but not one I relish seeing coming.

Passenger trains are nothing like freight trains, KJ. Most are powered by an over head electrical wire, not coal or oil, so how exactly are they dirty?

And every passenger train I have been on has been very quiet. I lived 25 yards from a main line in Germany and barely even noticed them. The Cincinnati streetcar in particular will be significantly quieter than city busses.

[UncleMilty]

I fully expect a 10 mil-20 mil county wide property increase in the next decade. Most costs will be associated with the streetcar and other light rail. As mentioned by others in this thread the demographic change in Cincinnati proper where we now have more takers than givers. One of the few cities in America with such a distinction. The East side will continue to financially support the county for years to come.

[unusualfire]

^Source on more takers than givers?

[jmecklenborg]

>You forget to draw the distinction between "tax rate" and "top marginal tax rate" - at no point in the history of this country has the federal income tax been 90+% as a function of total income - rather, income above a certain point.

The highest federal tax rate in U.S. history was 94% in 1944 and 1945 for earnings above $200,000. The top taxable rate remained very high -- as high as 75% -- as late as 1969. You know, back when the US had hardly any debt.

>And in the "good old days", sales taxes were lower, fees were fewer and lower, property taxes were miniscule, and how much could you buy a pack of cigarettes for again?

I'm talking about the postwar years, up until Reagan. The national debt exploded under Reagan because he cut taxes so dramatically for the rich without cutting back spending. He blamed the debt on welfare queens when it was all him. Ever since, we've suffered through this ridiculous "we don't have the money and it's the poor's fault" narrative. Recently, instead of raising taxes to pay for the Iraq adventure, Bush cut them.

>The tax rate hasn't gone down, despite your attempt to paint it as such - it's just gone elsewhere.

Absolutely our overall rate of taxation has gone down. Local and state taxes on personal property and income have increased slightly while federal taxes have been slashed. The federal corporate earnings tax has been as high as 52% (again, during the postwar years) and now it's 35%.

Why does this matter?

Because the Tea Party crowd stands on the ridiculous notion that taxes keep going up when in fact they keep trending downward. They keep arguing that taxes must go down further so that the US can regain its place in the world -- you know -- back when we taxed the hell out of the rich and the companies they owned.

We should have comprehensive modern public transportation systems in every U.S. city. Sure, they're very expensive to build, but they are absolutely essential if we wish to stabilize neighborhoods and avoid future oil wars.