Light Rail - Where and how do we get started!

[CinciFan]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

Since the Cincy streetcar is also light rail capable, the only real difference in what I was talking about is where the tracks are. In this case it would be separate from the street through the Wasson Way corridor, but physically sharing the streets most of the rest of the way into downtown. Some would probably want longer trains for commuter routes, but given the turning limitations these trains would have downtown, I don't know how possible that is.

I envision the line using longer streetcars on this route. As you said, they would run in the seperate right of way through the East side, then travel along Gilbert in the median all the way to downtown. From there the trains would enter the subway tunnels near the casino, stop at the station under Central Parkway, and continue on to Northside. From there the line could be extended to the West side somewhere.

Obviously this is a pretty ambitious plan that would need to be done in phases.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by CinciFan

I envision the line using longer streetcars on this route. As you said, they would run in the seperate right of way through the East side, then travel along Gilbert in the median all the way to downtown. From there the trains would enter the subway tunnels near the casino, stop at the station under Central Parkway, and continue on to Northside. From there the line could be extended to the West side somewhere.

Obviously this is a pretty ambitious plan that would need to be done in phases.

I don't think the subway option is economically viable given the results are about the same as a surface route at 3 times the cost. I think the median route works (it would have to be a shared right of way at first along Montgomery Rd and the Victory Parkway crossing is problematic, but otherwise it's fine) but then I think it has to cross the 71 at Elsinore and turn onto Reading Rd. Then it could simply merge into the existing streetcar line at Central Pkwy. As for reaching the West side, I think the most economic impact occurs on a route through South Fairmount and up Queen City Ave to Glenway Crossing. A Northside/College Hill route adds less investment to the city and costs as much or more to build and maintain.

[CinciFan]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

I don't think the subway option is economically viable given the results are about the same as a surface route at 3 times the cost.

I'm not so sure about that. Why would we not use the subway tunnels when they are already built? A recent study determined it would cost about $100 million to bring the tunnel into working order for low floor vehicles.

I am all for streetcars running in streets as connectors/circulators for neighborhoods, but when we're talking about connecting the suburbs to Downtown, speed is going to be essential. Using the subway tunnels would facilitate the fastest possible speeds while also spurring plenty of development around the stations.

Also, why would we not connect Northside when the subway tunnel practically leads right to it? That is probably one of the cheapest neighborhood connections we could build. Since it's such a densely populated/happening area, it would add significant ridership to the entire rail system.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by CinciFan

I'm not so sure about that. Why would we not use the subway tunnels when they are already built? A recent study determined it would cost about $100 million to bring the tunnel into working order for low floor vehicles.

I am all for streetcars running in streets as connectors/circulators for neighborhoods, but when we're talking about connecting the suburbs to Downtown, speed is going to be essential. Using the subway tunnels would facilitate the fastest possible speeds while also spurring plenty of development around the stations.

Also, why would we not connect Northside when the subway tunnel practically leads right to it? That is probably one of the cheapest neighborhood connections we could build. Since it's such a densely populated/happening area, it would add significant ridership to the entire rail system.

The existing tunnel is only part of the issue, the stations and platforms have to be built and made ADA compliant. Also the tunnel doesn't go to Northside, it only goes a bit past Brighton/Mohawk, and stops before where the Western Hills viaduct is, meaning it's almost all entirely redundant with the existing streetcar route at this point and there's a significant amount of tunnel that has to be dug to finish the connection. It also more practically leads to the South Fairmount route I'm proposing. If it was already built all the way I'd likely be more in agreement, and I think eventually a Northside subway should be a goal, but there's still a lot of work that would need to be done, whereas other projects could be finished a lot faster and the return on investment used to finish that subway.

These projects never pay for themselves by themselves, the only way for cities to make money from them is by new development, and there's only a small section of Northside/Cumminsville (around the intersection of Hamilton and Spring Grove) that's a good possibility for investment. The rest is already built or building without help. South Fairmount, OTOH, is a completely blighted neighborhood that's already about to see a daylighted Lick Run with the sewer work, and if you add a mass transit project like a downtown connector streetcar, it would bring in more than enough money and you'd see an OTR type of resurgence there. It's still close enough to be a circulating route with downtown. There will need to be more speed along Queen City Ave, but it's an easier build/straighter shot to the West side than up Hamilton or Colerain Ave.

[kjbrill]

Why is it these rail discussions always escalate into something of a completely different scale?

Other than the streetcar Phase 1, not a single rail project has received a go ahead. There is the Wasson Line, which at least has an unobstructed right-of-way, though I am not sure who still owns it?

There is the Oasis Line, which I believe already has a track to the Transit Center downtown, thereby avoiding the problem of navigating Cincinnati's hills. I believe the knock against it is insufficient population density along the route to provide ridership. Again, who still owns the entire right-of-way?

But talk about getting either one actually off the ground, and here come the escalations. They must undoubtedly utilize the subway tunnels downtown. Why? Water infiltration, air quality standards, a whole host of problems would have to be addressed, before you even get to the ADA.