Light Rail - Where and how do we get started! (Cincinnati: live in, costs)

[natininja]

Originally Posted by WILWRadio

My point by posting this article is that the city of Cincinnati, should it implement any kind of rail system, better be prepared for the day when tens of thousands of commuters cannot use the system for one reason or another. Even if it goes down for a day, it will have a very big impact on the lives of the people that rely upon rail for their sole means of getting around and especially the businesses that are served by these lines.

Usually special bus services sprout up when things like that happen. Again, it's similar to when a bridge suddenly fails, or even when highways are shut down due to accidents. The network routes around the problem. It's never a perfect solution, but things keep moving.

Usually there are systems set up for when track needs to be shut down for maintenance, so I assume those fall-back plans get tweaked to deal with emergencies. The more significant the impact of a failure, the more incentive there is to get the system back on line quickly.

It is a concern, and I see your point that the road network is generally more adept to handle something like that. But the road network is available for buses to serve the affected riders temporarily. It's not like road networks are immune to major disasters, either. Remember when that bridge collapsed on I-95 15-20 years ago? I think it was in Connecticut. That was a pretty massive disaster for commuters, without a simple solution.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by natininja

Usually special bus services sprout up when things like that happen. Again, it's similar to when a bridge suddenly fails, or even when highways are shut down due to accidents. The network routes around the problem. It's never a perfect solution, but things keep moving.

Usually there are systems set up for when track needs to be shut down for maintenance, so I assume those fall-back plans get tweaked to deal with emergencies. The more significant the impact of a failure, the more incentive there is to get the system back on line quickly.

It is a concern, and I see your point that the road network is generally more adept to handle something like that. But the road network is available for buses to serve the affected riders temporarily. It's not like road networks are immune to major disasters, either. Remember when that bridge collapsed on I-95 15-20 years ago? I think it was in Connecticut. That was a pretty massive disaster for commuters, without a simple solution.

Yes, the Mianus River Bridge. Around 1983 maybe. Near Bridgeport. They need to find a suitable Plan B should a line or several go down. At least if a bus goes down or even a few, they can be replaced quickly with little impact on the riders or the services they use.

[neilworms2]

I went to Chicago several times, and was able to do everything I needed to on the transit system, including getting to and from the airport. But I certainly can't do that here. The only way to our airport, if you don't have a car, is a taxi.

There is an express bus that runs once an hour, not the most convenient option per say, but could save you a lot in taxi fees - http://www.tankbus.org/Portals/0/Doc...%20Express.pdf

Though the real problem is CVG is useless due to obscenely high ticket fares, and alas, there is no non-car way to get to DAY airport :P.

A lot of these arguments against transit are moronic. I'll also say that people don't mind government spending 100s of millions of dollars on bypasses of places like Portsmith that don't need them, but cry bloody murder when a city spends less than that on something transit related. Ditto with big government, your probably okay with the NSA aparatus and all the extra spending we do on defense which is more than all other countries combined, but cry bloody murder when something more practical like transportation is the target of the spending. Hypocracy at its finest :P.

**** happens with trains, its rare, just like how **** can happen to roadways - sometimes flooding and what not happens, it sucks but its rare and when it happens just like a detour sign being put up there are provisions to get around it.

[natininja]

^^ Probably buses would run between the rail stations until things were fixed. It would be slow, but it would be a workable temporary solution. It would be sort of like after Sandy when I had to allot about double time for my commute, and had to take a bus instead of the train for a while. Transit agencies were cross-honoring tickets for bus/rail/etc. Slowly, things came back online.

Funny I thought the Mianus bridge collapse was more recent. I thought I'd remembered seeing it on the news, but I was a bit young to remember something like that if it happened in '83. Guess I just heard about it well afterwards and formed a false memory.

^ Not sure how I missed that. Yes, there is an express bus from the airport to Government Square. Pretty convenient for a lot of destinations, really. And far cheaper than a cab. The airport actually has done a very good job of putting up signs directing people to the bus stop as you exit the terminal. Now if CVG could cease having the highest fares in the country, we could be putting it to good use.

[kjbrill]

So far, in this rapid growth thread, I have seen little to support the title question Where and how do we get started?

The only solid support seems to be do not expect to get money out of the Federal Government anytime soon. Seeing the hoops they are jumping through just to avoid a government shutdown I think that is right.

The 2nd solid suggestion is Cincinnati must agree to tax itself to the level of other cities to build a rapid transit. Reminds me of when my parents used to say I don't care if everybody's doing it - You are not doing it! Part of the attraction of living in Cincinnati is taxes are not oppressive.

A few drag out obsolete proposals like MetroMoves or even current projects like the Oasis and Wasson lines. Some of these have been on the table for years, reach a certain point where money is needed for actual construction and die on the vine. They are dragged out a couple of years later by the bureaucrats responsible for transit proposals with the same results. The bureaucrats have to keep dragging them out or there is no reason for their jobs.

Cities like New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas and some others have a high enough concentration of jobs in the city core to support rapid transit to get there. Cincinnati simply does not. Too many of the jobs in the Cincinnati Metro area are spread all over the place. Since Hamilton Co. cannot support rapid transit on its own, I just do not see the residents of adjacent counties agreeing to any tax, etc. proposal for rapid transit when the prevailing view is it does nothing for me.

The current streetcar may very well succeed, time will tell. If it is successful there will be a good case to expand it. But rapid transit it is not, more like slow transit. If ridership supports it, the streetcar can be a very good people mover. I just don't see it as covering more than a limited area as travel times will be too long.

What keeps coming to my mind are my experiences in Japan with mass and rapid transit. Yes, there a very high percentage of the population uses trains. But then the extenuating circumstances. There is no land to build roads. The majority of the population does not own a car, too expensive, no place to park it, etc. They will have a moped parked under a roof overhang to travel around the local area. The trains are well organized and reliable. You can set your watch by their schedule. And they are crowded, boy are they crowded. What impressed me was they are clean and safe. No rowdiness. The Japanese have learned how to get along in a communal society. Due to the extreme scarcity of land compared to the population, they are very courteous to each other. Considering how they are packed together, if they were not they would be at each others throats constantly and mayhem would prevail. So I have observed rail transit which works. I have also observed why it works.

BTW, I worked for a Japanese owned company for over 20 years. They would send certain technical people here to Cincinnati on assignment. The assignment was get to know and understand the North American market as that is our profit potential. Think about it, Toyota in Ky, Honda in Ohio, Nissan in Indiana. And now the South Koreans, Hyundai and Kia, are doing the same thing.

BTW#2, Among the first things the Japanese who were assigned to duty in Cincinnati did was buy a car! They would drive me nuts with questions such as Can I drive to Niagara Falls over the weekend? Yes, if you only want a quick look at the falls and then head back. Other popular destinations were Chicago, New Orleans (too far) and then the Grand Canyon (way too far!). They had little concept of the size of the US, just like most of us have little concept of the size of Japan. My favorite comment is 70% of the land mass of Japan is volcanic mountains, totally uninhabitable. So you have 130 million people crammed on an inhabitable area less than 30% of the size of the state of California.

Yes I do have a point in all of these ramblings. When you have a need and a consensus of the population, rail mass transit makes a lot of sense. But in Cincinnati this is not the time or the place.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Too many of the jobs in the Cincinnati Metro area are spread all over the place.

Wrong again.

Inner-City Neighborhoods Center of Population, Economic Power in Cincinnati Region — UrbanCincy

In the Cincinnati Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), center city neighborhoods account for the highest concentration of jobs, with more than 22,000 jobs per square mile in Downtown’s 45202 zip code, and anywhere from 3,000 to 9,000 jobs per square mile in Uptown neighborhoods.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

Wrong again.

Inner-City Neighborhoods Center of Population, Economic Power in Cincinnati Region — UrbanCincy

Obviously you will have a higher concentration of jobs in the noted areas. I am just saying of the total jobs in the metro area they are not a dominant enough percentage to make people tax themselves for rail transit to get there.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Obviously you will have a higher concentration of jobs in the noted areas.

Not higher, highest.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by TomJones123

Not higher, highest.

So trumph your chest and shout to the hills, this is the highest. But when you compare the overall square miles from which this is derived, the actual area is a miniscule percentage of the total Cincinnati Metro Area. Those are the plain and simple facts. People live and work in so many other areas which warp the statistics. The only ones which want to cite densities, etc. are the urban proponents who will just not believe the suburbs are a major infuence. Too bad you have your total blinders on.

[TomJones123]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

So trumph your chest and shout to the hills, this is the highest. But when you compare the overall square miles from which this is derived, the actual area is a miniscule percentage of the total Cincinnati Metro Area. Those are the plain and simple facts. People live and work in so many other areas which warp the statistics. The only ones which want to cite densities, etc. are the urban proponents who will just not believe the suburbs are a major infuence. Too bad you have your total blinders on.

Riiiiight. That's why the article is titled:
Inner-City Neighborhoods Center of Population, Economic Power in Cincinnati Region