Light Rail - Where and how do we get started! (Green: cost, shop)

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

This is untrue, most people in neighborhoods served by Wasson Way seem to prefer that both bike and rail remain available to the corridor and at wassonway.org they say they also support light rail along the line in the future. Most everybody involved seems to like the recommended bike trail design from KZF that costs a bit more but is built mostly alongside the tracks and keeps the option for a future coinciding rail line still available.

When you say costs a bit more, what is a bit more? I have seen proposals for both bike trail alongside the rail line and a bike trail on top of the rail line. One of the problems with the rail line is that the bridges have decayed beyond repair. They will have to be replaced. This is no small item. If a bike trail is built alongside the rail line, a whole new set of bridges must be constructed. Granted a bike trail does not need the type of bridge a railroad does, but they still have to be built. Where is the money to do this coming from? Same place as the money to rebuild MH and UT? Why not, seems a sales tax increase is the answer to everything.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

When you say costs a bit more, what is a bit more? I have seen proposals for both bike trail alongside the rail line and a bike trail on top of the rail line. One of the problems with the rail line is that the bridges have decayed beyond repair. They will have to be replaced. This is no small item. If a bike trail is built alongside the rail line, a whole new set of bridges must be constructed. Granted a bike trail does not need the type of bridge a railroad does, but they still have to be built. Where is the money to do this coming from? Same place as the money to rebuild MH and UT? Why not, seems a sales tax increase is the answer to everything.

The study:

http://wassonway.org/files/WassonWay...webVersion.pdf

Basically lays out three options, one to basically make it bike only on top of the tracks, one with a separate trail most of the way except for at a few pinch points (mostly those bridges you talk about) where the trail would have to go on the tracks for now, and one where the bike trail is completely built off the tracks and new bridges are built for it. That one's probably too costly ($36 million) but the second option, the one recommended by the designers and supported by about everybody involved costs $11.2 million. It seems that the community group behind it feels that they can get a federal TIGER grant, shifting about half the cost to a nationwide tax burden rather than a purely local tax burden, the other half I'm assuming they'll seek through the same city funding mechanism that's being used to purchase the property. I'd rather TIF's get established along the route to help pay for the bike trail, since it will be of very limited use to other city residents, but I'm suspecting it will get billed to the entire city.

The rail line would be a whole different monster, however, and it would ultimately need local, state, and federal support, something unlikely in the current climate. It also needs a feasible plan that's going to connect the western terminus at Montgomery Rd. to downtown, right now with the way the remaining rail corridor has been developed, that would probably have to involve making the line a streetcar the rest of the way in.

[kjbrill]

A TIGER grant for a bike trail. How interesting. How is the bike trail construed as public transportation? Public recreation yes, but transportation?

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

A TIGER grant for a bike trail. How interesting. How is the bike trail construed as public transportation? Public recreation yes, but transportation?

I think it depends on where the trail leads, if it goes from a residential area to a jobs center, which Wasson Way sort of does, it can be useful for bike commuters. This definitely increases the safety and lowers the commute time of those riding from Mariemont or Newtown to Xavier and the Uptown area. College students, professors, and the doctors of pill hill should find it beneficial. However, I think this also may be why the trail supporters are in favor of the "mixed-use" designation and also saving the corridor for light rail in the first place as it will be easier to get the federal grant if the project is intended to ultimately serve multiple modes.

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

I think it depends on where the trail leads, if it goes from a residential area to a jobs center, which Wasson Way sort of does, it can be useful for bike commuters. This definitely increases the safety and lowers the commute time of those riding from Mariemont or Newtown to Xavier and the Uptown area. College students, professors, and the doctors of pill hill should find it beneficial. However, I think this also may be why the trail supporters are in favor of the "mixed-use" designation and also saving the corridor for light rail in the first place as it will be easier to get the federal grant if the project is intended to ultimately serve multiple modes.

Anybody biking from Mariemont or Newtown to Xavier as their regular job commute needs to have their head examined. The vagaries of the weather is enough to stop me. It is one think to rely on a bike downtown in a highly dense environment. If the weather is especially nasty you can always call a cab. But these distances are something different.

[CincyJim]

$133 MILLION tax dollars (+how much more?) for a street car from downtown through Over the Rhine. The cost is ~$100 MILLION tax dollars a mile?

The "light rail" ought to go from/to at what cost? The car drivers (80+%) shall forgo their cars for "light rail"? Ask Cincy Metro what they think based on their experience.
Moderator cut: unnecessary

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by kjbrill

Anybody biking from Mariemont or Newtown to Xavier as their regular job commute needs to have their head examined. The vagaries of the weather is enough to stop me. It is one think to rely on a bike downtown in a highly dense environment. If the weather is especially nasty you can always call a cab. But these distances are something different.

I'm guessing anybody who would be making this bike commute will also have a car, or at least be familiar with the bus routes as a secondary option. To bike advocates, it really wouldn't be that bad a commute, and the route avoids much of the hilliness of the region. Don't get me wrong though, I'm also very skeptical of its practical uses as a "transport" option for purposes of a TIGER grant if we're talking about only bicycles, that's a very small percentage of the population this would serve. Again, that's a large part of why I think they're in favor of the mixed use plans.

[RustBeltOptimist]

Originally Posted by CincyJim

$133 MILLION tax dollars (+how much more?) for a street car from downtown through Over the Rhine. The cost is ~$100 MILLION tax dollars a mile?

The "light rail" ought to go from/to at what cost? The car drivers (80+%) shall forgo their cars for "light rail"? Ask Cincy Metro what they think based on their experience.

Moderator cut: unnecessary

Cincy Metro... there's an authority. Let's ask Kwame Kilpatrick what he thinks the city ought to do with the budget crisis while we're at it.

The percentage of mass transit riders continues to go up, the percentage of people in favor of spending on mass transit infrastructure goes up, the prices at the gas pump and at the car lots continue to go up. Wages? They aren't going up. As long as those conditions remain true, rail becomes a lot more economically viable for getting workers to their jobs, and visitors to restaurants and other amusements. It's a big up front cost, but it ultimately will save the region a lot of money and improve the chances that the city survives the next century. I don't think Cincy can afford it right now, but we should be preparing for it when we can.

[kjbrill]

Why can't such things as the Wasson Way project be streetcar all the way? I thought Cincy was buying one of the most advanced streetcar designs available. Why is it not suitable for the Wasson Way line? Too Slow? Ask the manufacturer to build us some higher geared trains with greater top speed. Might be a little slow on the takeoff but the top speed should more than make up for it. Run a few express routes. With fewer stops on a rail should still beat car commute times.

The sharing of parts, maintenance training, etc. should more than compensate against a one-off, one-track, rail line still requiring maintenance, service, trained technicians, etc.

I can envision streetcars running as far as Kenwood with no problem. After all, when I was young I rode streetcars from Silverton to downtown.

But even that has to wait until the uptown link gets built. Anyone want to guess how long that is going to take?

[kjbrill]

Originally Posted by RustBeltOptimist

I think it depends on where the trail leads, if it goes from a residential area to a jobs center, which Wasson Way sort of does, it can be useful for bike commuters. This definitely increases the safety and lowers the commute time of those riding from Mariemont or Newtown to Xavier and the Uptown area. College students, professors, and the doctors of pill hill should find it beneficial. However, I think this also may be why the trail supporters are in favor of the "mixed-use" designation and also saving the corridor for light rail in the first place as it will be easier to get the federal grant if the project is intended to ultimately serve multiple modes.

Please clarify for me just what the mixed-use designation applies to, as you lost me. On the one hand we have a bike trail, which obviously walkers, runners, and joggers can use. But that is true of any bike trail. One the other hand we have a reserved rail corridor which has no active component nor a schedule to establish one. So what is the mixed-use?