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I've said it before and I will repeat it 'til the rivers all run dry. Texas -- and to a somewhat lesser historical extent -- Oklahoma, ARE "Southwestern". But NOT in the same Southwest as of New Mexico, Arizona, and other states/areas of the Census Bureau West (such as Nevada, Utah, etc).
There is just no historical/cultural comparisson that lends to Texas and Oklahoma being part of the interior/desert Southwest. The former are Southern in their development and essential nature and culture. They are South-west as in western South; the frontier of the historic South itself.
The other locations are Southwest as in southern West. There is a huge difference, here. About the only part of Texas that can be truly classified with that Southwest is the trans-pecos area. Even most of the rest of west Texas -- while topographically and climatically -- connects with NM and AZ, the real history and culture does not.
West Texas is strong Southern Baptist country among anglo and black natives, and it is an area where Southern American English is -- especially, in rural areas -- is very akin to that in north Alabama and west Tennessee (where most settlers orginally came from). In fact, in both those regards (just to mention a few), contain some of the strongest undiluted "Southern" features that can be found anywhere...even if the physical geography does not match! LOL
At most, one can call West Texas a transition zone between South and Southwest (as in the latter being a seperate region from the South as in Southeast history and culture). But even that is stretching it. Again, it is just the frontier limits of the South. When one goes much past -- travelling west -- that Texas/New Mexico line...there is nothing "Southern" about it. From the opposite direction, going east? There is plenty "Southern" about west Texas.
Bottom line is (IMHO of course), any discussions involving the true Southwest as to places to live, culture, etc, need to exclude all but the trans-pecos region of Texas. The rest of it is essentially Southern.
I think the main issue is that the word SOUTHWEST carries two meanings
One it's about geography and the other one is of a cultural-historical nature
You can look at So-Cal from these two perspectives
GEOGRAPHICALLY, yes, So Cal is the southwest corner of the US
CULTURALLY-HISTORICALLY, No, The international influence in SoCal
is such that it completely dominates any south-west lifestyle or cultural associations
with what is generally considered the US SouthWest ,
So Cal, does not see itself historically as SouthWest
It sees itself first as californian, Pacific, West Coast, International.
It's funny but many years ago there was this tourist/traveling marketing campaign going on
on some of the mayor US magazines and publications promoting the US Southwest
and it included a map where the southhwest ended a little over the Nevada-California border
California as a whole was dumped out of the map lol!
Some people did not like the idea, there are a few small desert towns that see themselves
as southwest in the californian desert and market thermselves as such, they did not take kindly to this
as for the rest of So.Cal nobody gave a rat's ass about it.
But really California as a whole isn't Southwestern!! Going to the Inland Empire area, Riverside- San Bernandino and more east has a Southwestern look/feel. (Desert like)
What is everybody's opinion on this? Does the Southwestern United States encompass Southern California?
On appearances alone, Southern California is decidedly Southwestern. The Spanish architecture, auto-centric lifestyle, and geographical features are far more reminiscent of Phoenix than San Francisco. The real difference SoCal has from the Southwest is the culture, which is dominated by the cosmopolitan prominence of Los Angeles. However, I think the culture is still quite different from that of the Bay Area or Seattle especially in suburban Los Angeles, Orange County, and San Diego. Maybe California, like Texas, is a state that encompasses multiple regions, SoCal going with the Southwest and NorCal going with the Pacific Northwest?
You do realize that, in terms of phsyical geography and architecture, the San Francisco Bay Area is much more similar to SoCal than it is to Seattle. Most of the Bay Area has a lot of palm trees, gentle hills, as well as redwoods, etc. There's also a ton of Spanish architecture. Seattle looks like New England.
This is 40 minutes South of San Francisco. The Bay Area is filled with stuff like this:
Culturally, the SF Bay Area has elements of SoCal and elements of the Pacific NW, but in terms of how it looks - much, much more like SoCal.
you do realize that, in terms of phsyical geography and architecture, the san francisco bay area is much more similar to socal than it is to seattle. Most of the bay area has a lot of palm trees, gentle hills, as well as redwoods, etc. There's also a ton of spanish architecture. Seattle looks like new england.
This is 40 minutes south of san francisco. The bay area is filled with stuff like this:
Culturally, the sf bay area has elements of socal and elements of the pacific nw, but in terms of how it looks - much, much more like socal.
AZ and NM and Texas and Oklahoma that's all Folks.....
Two different "Southwests". Arizona and New Mexico are "southern West". Texas and (to a bit lesser extent) Oklahoma, are "western South". The former have a history much more akin to the true West. The latter were overwhelmingly shaped by the American South.
Two different "Southwests". Arizona and New Mexico are "southern West". Texas and (to a bit lesser extent) Oklahoma, are "western South". The former have a history much more akin to the true West. The latter were overwhelmingly shaped by the American South.
Reb you can shout it until you're blue in the face but Howest will not accept the facts. He wants to believe in something that is utterly inaccurate and false. I guess he will just continue to be ignorant of the facts to promote some sort of personal agenda.
Reb you can shout it until you're blue in the face but Howest will not accept the facts. He wants to believe in something that is utterly inaccurate and false. I guess he will just continue to be ignorant of the facts to promote some sort of personal agenda.
Why not try it for yourself....I know that Texas and Oklahoma are not a part of the Desert Southwest , they are "not desert" sic... , but both (Texas and Oklahoma) "share the heritage" of the "Cowboy Culture of the Southwest" which The South Does Not Share....the SOUTH not having a COWBOY and INDIANS Orientation.
Why not try it for yourself....I know that Texas and Oklahoma are not a part of the Desert Southwest , they are "not desert" sic... , but both (Texas and Oklahoma) "share the heritage" of the "Cowboy Culture of the Southwest" which The South Does Not Share....the SOUTH not having a COWBOY and INDIANS Orientation.
Have you ever been to Phoenix Howest? Do you honestly consider it a city that is dominated by cowboy culture and is country in nature? Phoenix and most of AZ was settled by people from places in the upper midwest and back east. TX and OK were settled by southerners. At the very least people in AZ don't talk like people from TX or OK. That is undisputable. Phoenix is within driving distance from LA and somehow you think Phoenix is more influenced by places 1000 miles or more away than it is by it's next door neighbor. I've split time between So Cal and Phx my whole life and at no time have I ever felt a major difference in terms of culture and lifestyle between the two places. I've been to Texas a few times and been through Oklahoma once and it felt very different. Some of the people were nice but the customs, language, lifestyle, etc. were very foreign to me.
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Southwestern..............
