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Your definitions of what constitutes intellectualism probably differ. How is being an engineer or a scientist any less of an intellectual than, say, a poet, or a philosopher?
Eskercurve, I am just agitating you, as I expected you to hold your ground. It is clear to see your posts come with more thought put into them than the general population which lives on this board. Even if your thought sometimes leads you down the wrong path and isn't supporting your argument. So don't think I am getting on your case, no, I can see you are smart and could actually have a discussion about it, that's all.
The highlight in bold is the main problem of your argument though. It is also the answer to your argument.
Indeed, my definition also differs, but... so does the generally agreed upon terminology which has grown over the centuries, particularly from those who are gatekeepers and define such words or ideas.
I think you should be able to find out the answer to your question from a few phrased google searches, so I won't bother with why as it would be a few pages in length and likely at this point you would trust an alternative source rather than us.
There is no attempt to be a snob about it, it's just the topic we are discussing isn't one that you would normally find on a site such as this I gather. So the manner of language could seem harsh when attempting to define it.
Also your attempts to quantify it don't really work, and leads back to the differentiation between intelligence and intellectualism.
We aren't by any means saying intelligence BAD, intellectualism GOOD. We are just saying they are different realms.
We also aren't saying Seattle doesn't have ANY, I'm fairly aware of what Seattle has, I just do not think it stacks up well with what goes on in NYC or Boston, so I would be extremely hesitant to define it as a capital of anything.
BTW, I'm not from the East Coast, nor West Coast... so can we stay out of that tired argument. You'll notice I am not defending DC correct?
Last edited by Garfieldian; 09-02-2011 at 09:11 AM..
After reading a few pages on the internet and consulting with a friend I know in St. Louis, I am compelled to agree with you.
I think one of the central tenets of my argument was that the role of intellectual and one who harbors intelligence are one and the same, but that is not the case. At one point, in ancient times, it may have, as the "men of letters" label was used to describe people of sufficient intelligence or education to afford literacy, which at the time, was rare in Europe. After the social upheavals of the 1700s, when literacy was more widespread, the term evolved to include "intellectuals" who dove into philosophy, politics, art, etc. For a time, one could be an "intellectual" and have great intelligence. But these days, when technical and scientific fields demand greater specialization, the ability and time to focus on more than just science has dwindled.
Thus, these days, people of science and "intellectuals" rarely intersect and often times scoff at one another; scientists and engineers commonly refer to philosophers and politicians as living in "ivory towers" and the latter referring to the former as "booksmart." I refrain from such pedantic attacks, because I think it is the intellectuals' job to check society, to observe and comment, and provide important guidance for a society's evolution. Without such guidance, and action, we would not have the same world as we have today that affords freedom of thought (for the most part). It also certainly wouldn't be as interesting and beautiful.
Anyways, very stimulating conversation G. Take care. I agree with you. I can also look past your agitation ... *grumble grumble grumble*
haha... EC... yeah no worries. I am not mad, it just might seem that way over the internet, and of course the internet is an easier medium in which to argue with people I might come back to the topic in a bit, but your last post sums up my thoughts nicely.
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eskercurve
All I know is that I'm not a snob about it ...
Your definitions of what constitutes intellectualism probably differ. How is being an engineer or a scientist any less of an intellectual than, say, a poet, or a philosopher?
We're all searching for our own unique understanding of the basis of existence and perhaps making it a little better.
I'm fully willing able to undestand and appreciate a beautiful Miro, or Dega, just as much as a sketch by Leonardo da Vinci.
And many times, it is the intersection of them which cause revolutions. For example, in my job, we're turning back to the mother of all evolutionary genetic algorithms ... nature ... namely birds ... to learn how to design better wings for airplanes to move your philosophical asses from place to place, while armchair thinking about how strange our own perception is of the world and wondering whether any of us really exist or not or even if we should care. Keep doing that. I'll keep making cool stuff.
Take care.
I have no idea of why you think I was criticising you. I suppose you think that I value intellectuality above intelligence, but it's quite the reverse .... intellectuality is simply one of many ways to focus intelligence. To say that it is more important than intelligence is like saying that the sun is more important than the prism which makes a pretty light.
Boston is both highly intellectual and quite intelligent, imo. Seattle as a whole is highly intelligent but not so intellectually oriented, though not void of it either.
I don't think the arts are intellectual by themselves, but art or music history, analysis, and interpretation are.
Every member of the Supreme Court attended Harvard (Boston) or Yale (NY metro). Many of our recent presidents attended one of those two. There are a mass of highly regarded universities in the Boston/New York corridor.
But you couldn't list 4 cities that are more divergent from the rest of America than Boston, New York, San Francisco and DC. The latter two are viewed as totally out of touch with the rest of America.
Columbus Ohio is often used for testing products because it is so typical of America. America doesn't take its cue from Columbus, but it sure doesn't from Boston, NY, SF and DC.
Every member of the Supreme Court attended Harvard (Boston) or Yale (NY metro). Many of our recent presidents attended one of those two. There are a mass of highly regarded universities in the Boston/New York corridor.
But you couldn't list 4 cities that are more divergent from the rest of America than Boston, New York, San Francisco and DC. The latter two are viewed as totally out of touch with the rest of America.
Columbus Ohio is often used for testing products because it is so typical of America. America doesn't take its cue from Columbus, but it sure doesn't from Boston, NY, SF and DC.
It's a fallacy to say those cities are so divergent from the rest of America. If you take those four cities' CSAs you have 44 million people. That's 14% of America, 1 out every 7 Americans. With a population share that big they can't be that out of touch from the "rest" because they already make up a large part of it if you understand what I'm saying. And America absolutely takes cues from those cities in terms of so many things.
1. Boston
2. SF Bay
3. New York
4. Washington DC
5. Seattle
6. Philadelphia
7. Chicago
8. Los Angeles
9. Portland
10. San Diego
^^ This is a pretty accurate list, but I would put Washington DC ahead of New York.
New York is home to some of the most intellectual people and industries in the country/world, but the overall general population in DC seems to be more intellectual than New York. At least that has been my experience since I've lived in both cities.
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I might come back to the topic in a bit, but your last post sums up my thoughts nicely.
