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If Indianapolis is booming downtown, then Nordstorm shouldn't have to close. That makes no economic sense for a retailer to do that.
Metro Detroit has 3 Nordstroms, 2 of them built in 2007 all within 20 minutes of each other and 20 minutes from Downtown Detroit.
Actually, downtown has been booming. In the last 10 years (not counting the entire 30 years of reviving progress) many changes include projects like Lucas Oil, convention expansion, canal, Conrad, Marriott, urban cultural trail, more retail, new library, more urban housing etc. (too many to list) What part of that boom growth do you not see? Doesn't sound like a downtown in decline to me.
What you fail to understand is that over the years tenants have come and gone downtown. If you want to make the argument about Nordstrom keep in mind that also another major anchor tenant "Parisians" which also closed has been successfully been replaced by Carson Pirie Scott (much better anchor, imo). Carson Pirie Scott is also an older establishment than Nordstrom which just happens to be an expansion of the original flagship store in downtown Chicago. I'll take Carson Pirie Scott over Nordstrom anyday. So no the Nordstrom closing isn't new and will eventually be replaced with something probably better. Also Simon Property Group headquarters (owner of Circle Centre) is located just down the street. They own and run hundreds of retail malls/outlets around the world. They own malls like the Houston Galleria, Philly's King of Prussia and the humongous Trafford Centre in Manchester,UK just to name a few. They will eventually find a replacement for Nordstrom like they have for Parisians. When Borders Books closed downtown the space was replaced by another tenant. If downtown was in such a decline Carson Pirie Scott wouldn't even touch Circle Centre as the are picky where they put their stores. Forget Nordstrom. Now if I heard an announcement that Simon Property Group were to go out of business then that would not be good news for Circle Centre. Unlikely, as they are building and buying more malls and other retail outlets. I'd rather lose Nordstrom than Simon Property Group which has the capital and ownership to make great stuff happen in the retail world especially for Circle Centre. They are ranked #1 in the United States as the largest real estate investment trust. So no losing a Nordstrom store at Circle Centre isn't the end of the world for downtown.
Downtown Indy is alive and getting more better with time. It's where the people go. Detroit could learn a lot from Indy's vibrant downtown success model. (Pittsburgh did)
The Cultural Trail is a new comprehensive urban walk and bike trail system linking neighborhoods to downtown.
More residential
Last edited by JMT; 01-02-2013 at 07:02 AM..
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So why are Indy and Detroit being compared again? What exactly are the similarities?
Detroit would actually have more in common with Birmingham,AL when it comes to race riots, population decline, industrial rust belt type city and white flight pattern (due to riots) history.
I figured Center Township was the right size to compare to downtown Detroit. Though it would actually include downtown to Highland Park to Grosse Pointe which is like 1/7th of Detroit.
So why are Indy and Detroit being compared again? What exactly are the similarities?
Outside of the history of the early automobile, the two cities really have nothing in common. Using a department store as some sort of measure is way off base. Macy's just closed its downtown Pittsburgh store even after the city through taxpayer money at it for them not to leave. For the longest time, Cincinnati has subsidized Macy's flagship store downtown. Yes, the taxpayers are propping them up so they do not lose the downtown store. The department store is falling by the way side with America's new push for buy local. Nothing wrong with that. It's just business. Any any event, a store or any business will choose a location with maximum output of their customer base. With the North side store opening in Indianapolis, their tax base which is the north side and northern burbs opted for the closer location. Do other sides of town shop at Nordstrom, yes but not enough to keep the DT store open as department stores need constant people flow. They then added a Nordstrom Rack in the development next or pretty much right next to Keystone at the Crossing so you have a Nordstrom and by all accounts their outlet (which isn't exactly cheap) within 1-2 blocks of each other because that's where their customer base is for Indianapolis.
Actually, downtown has been booming. In the last 10 years (not counting the entire 30 years of reviving progress) many changes include projects like Lucas Oil, convention expansion, canal, Conrad, Marriott, urban cultural trail, more retail, new library, more urban housing etc. (too many to list) What part of that boom growth do you not see? Doesn't sound like a downtown in decline to me.
Downtown Indy is alive and getting more better with time. It's where the people go. Detroit could learn a lot from Indy's vibrant downtown success model. (Pittsburgh did)
The Cultural Trail is a new comprehensive urban walk and bike trail system linking neighborhoods to downtown.
More residential
Detroit already has much of what you've mentioned with more on the way. For Detroit, a booming downtown is 5 times what Indy could ever possibly experience because the city was once way larger in population. Detroit never annexed its suburbs whereas Indianapolis did. And Detroit will make a comeback without having to do so.
Indy can enjoy their projects, but none of it is the same scale and scope as Detroit's. Maybe Indy can learn from Detroit on how to be a proper big city.
Detroit already has much of what you've mentioned with more on the way. For Detroit, a booming downtown is 5 times what Indy could ever possibly experience because the city was once way larger in population. Detroit never annexed its suburbs whereas Indianapolis did. And Detroit will make a comeback without having to do so.
Indy can enjoy their projects, but none of it is the same scale and scope as Detroit's. Maybe Indy can learn from Detroit on how to be a proper big city.
You really don't know anything about Indianapolis do you? If you are trying to base your argument over that list, you've got a long way to go. TechTown is a scaled down 16 Tech (NW Quad). Bike Lanes, what major US city isn't adding them? There's nothing spectacular about adding bike lanes. Right now Detroit has 55 miles of bike lanes, Indianapolis has 63 (as latest release of both cities), neither number is anything to boast about to be perfectly honest and both are falling well short. By 2015 both should be around 200 miles of bike lane. Again, nothing there that puts Detroit on some different stratosphere than Indianapolis. Your construction watch link is pretty weak to be honest and lags behind other city sites in the midwest when it comes to development and development within their respective urban cores.
Detroit's West End is what CityWay without the bonus of already having quality housing nearby (Fletcher Place) nor the amenities of CityWay. Again, nothing that's going to put Detroit above anyone in that regard. Bottom line, you place the development lists for Detroit and Indianapolis side by side over the years, it's not even close. To be frank put Detroit side by side with any of the other major midwest metros and it's not close as Detroit just lags behind the other metros in that regard. Detroit has some good suburbs, the city though is an entirely different animal with different circumstances.
Detroit already has much of what you've mentioned with more on the way. For Detroit, a booming downtown is 5 times what Indy could ever possibly experience because the city was once way larger in population. Detroit never annexed its suburbs whereas Indianapolis did. And Detroit will make a comeback without having to do so.
Indy can enjoy their projects, but none of it is the same scale and scope as Detroit's. Maybe Indy can learn from Detroit on how to be a proper big city.
If being a "proper big city" means being on the brink of bankruptcy, then forget it.
Seriously, I'm rooting for a Detroit comeback. I already called out the OP for what I perceived to be his negative aims with this thread. But all you're doing now is engaging in ridiculous homerism in an attempt to overcome having your erroneous claims about downtown Indy shot down with facts.
I was looking for an "urbaness" to Indy that doesn't seem to be there. Washington and Meridian and Fountain Sqaure come close, but those are only a few blocks. I'd vote for Indy if it just had many more of those types of blocks with much more density. I don't mean to bash Indy, but I honestly see more going in Cleveland that seems like an explosive urban growth than what I see going on in Indy. Even Buffalo, Milwaukee, and parts of Minneapolis appeal to the dense urbaness I'm looking for despite all being smaller than Indy.
Despite Detroit's problems, it does have an urban backbone that is reminiscent of a larger city. The next city up would be Chicago, but of course so is the cost of living. So to that point, I still don't see Indy have been triumph Detroit in that department. My honest opinion of Indy is that it still seems like a midsize Midwest city that has more suburban development than urban development and even if the quality of life is better in Indy, it probably and most likely is in any other Midwestern city and even in Detroit's own suburbs.
I was looking for an "urbaness" to Indy that doesn't seem to be there. Washington and Meridian and Fountain Sqaure come close, but those are only a few blocks. I'd vote for Indy if it just had many more of those types of blocks with much more density. I don't mean to bash Indy, but I honestly see more going in Cleveland that seems like an explosive urban growth than what I see going on in Indy. Even Buffalo, Milwaukee, and parts of Minneapolis appeal to the dense urbaness I'm looking for despite all being smaller than Indy.
Despite Detroit's problems, it does have an urban backbone that is reminiscent of a larger city. The next city up would be Chicago, but of course so is the cost of living. So to that point, I still don't see Indy have been triumph Detroit in that department. My honest opinion of Indy is that it still seems like a midsize Midwest city that has more suburban development than urban development and even if the quality of life is better in Indy, it probably and most likely is in any other Midwestern city and even in Detroit's own suburbs.
ya your right Detroit does have an Urban Backbone. one that has completely rotted away and is almost collasped in.
Detroit massive square miles of abandoned fields is not something to classify as an *Urban Backbone*
I was looking for an "urbaness" to Indy that doesn't seem to be there. Washington and Meridian and Fountain Sqaure come close, but those are only a few blocks. I'd vote for Indy if it just had many more of those types of blocks with much more density. I don't mean to bash Indy, but I honestly see more going in Cleveland that seems like an explosive urban growth than what I see going on in Indy. Even Buffalo, Milwaukee, and parts of Minneapolis appeal to the dense urbaness I'm looking for despite all being smaller than Indy.
Despite Detroit's problems, it does have an urban backbone that is reminiscent of a larger city. The next city up would be Chicago, but of course so is the cost of living. So to that point, I still don't see Indy have been triumph Detroit in that department. My honest opinion of Indy is that it still seems like a midsize Midwest city that has more suburban development than urban development and even if the quality of life is better in Indy, it probably and most likely is in any other Midwestern city and even in Detroit's own suburbs.
BTW - I'm not trying to "sell" you on Indy. I've merely countered your contention that Indy's downtown is declining and that Indy is on a path similar to Detroit's. You seem to be shifting your argument.
Even Buffalo, Milwaukee, and parts of Minneapolis appeal to the dense urbaness I'm looking for despite all being smaller than Indy.
Not really a fair comparison, is it? Indy's Metro is 1.7 million, MUCH smaller than Minneapolis and Cleveland. Indianapolis has a larger city population only because the city is HUGE, nearly 5 times the size of Minneapolis in square miles.
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