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This thread is becoming somewhat factual, finally.
Chicago is Chicago.
Baltimore and DC are combined to become nothing close to Chicago, and I don't care the CSA population is greater in WA/BAL. You can't penalize Chicago for not having another big city near it.
Having never been to Chicago, I'd assume it feels larger for the obvious reasons, and I agree that DC and Baltimore don't "feel" like one region; if you are from or familiar with the area, you can notice the change from one metro to the next. All that said, I'm not sure that they shouldn't just be considered one massive MSA, because I also agree that the two areas blend into each other and on a large scale, share much of the same events, entertainment and cultural offerings. Screw that, though:
The real thing that needs to be debated is how Washington and San Francisco are closing the gap on Chicago (and Los Angeles). It's undeniable that Chi/LA are closer to the next tier of cities (which in my opinion is only DC and SF) than they are to NY. I agree that it almost seems as if Chicago has already peaked as a city. Washington has been undergoing a renaissance over the last decade that shows no signs of slowing, and in most categories, can already fight toe to toe with Chicago (education; gdp is smaller but it is a smaller city; the economy is stronger because there's more money in DC per capita; arts---fine, visual, performing, music; quality of life in terms of gentrification and amenities; this list can go on and on). So where does Chicago have a clear advantage over DC? On what metrics?
So size differences notwithstanding, if DC is potentially on bumping Chicago in the next quarter century (very possibly sooner than that), if DC can fight Chi by itself, then a comparison of DC AND Baltimore versus Chicago, like in this thread, should be a no brainier that Washington-Baltimore are the stronger region. I do think that Chicago (and LA) are still firmly the number 2 & 3 cities in the nation, in any order, but Frisco and DC are playing catch up in a huge way and deserve more credit than they receive on this board. Chicago and LA are not so stable or so far ahead that we can assumedly project they'll keep that Second/Third City status forever, or even in the next 25 years...
Last edited by murksiderock; 07-22-2015 at 10:23 PM..
Agreed. However, how one defines a metro is important here. Wa/Baltimore is not a real good representation of a metro area. Even SF is a stretch as the the major cities really are just SF/Oakland, with San Jose 45 miles to the south.
How we define these areas is at the core. I'm not sure how the census works when it comes to this.
You can define the SF Bay area by many ways, and some will provide a larger number than others. However, the MSA is about 4.5 million, but when you include San Jose, and a CSA definition it suddenly becomes 8 million or more.
Agreed. However, how one defines a metro is important here. Wa/Baltimore is not a real good representation of a metro area. Even SF is a stretch as the the major cities really are just SF/Oakland, with San Jose 45 miles to the south.
How we define these areas is at the core. I'm not sure how the census works when it comes to this.
You can define the SF Bay area by many ways, and some will provide a larger number than others. However, the MSA is about 4.5 million, but when you include San Jose, and a CSA definition it suddenly becomes 8 million or more.
I agree too. The Bay Area, or SF, is always a good example about the numbers differences between CSAs and MSAs.
As for the original question, I know the map and connection of the Maryland corridor. I've flown into B ' more many times as the flights were better for DC meetings. To me as a business traveler along with some leisure in both, but much more D.C. than Chicago, there is no comparison. Where is Michigan Ave feeling in B 'more to DC? I have an above average knowledge of Laural, Bethesda, Silver Springs and NIH for other reasons. I'm not aware of people taking their bikes on the metro so they could ride around a grassy mall in Chicago, like in D.C.
Agreed. However, how one defines a metro is important here. Wa/Baltimore is not a real good representation of a metro area. Even SF is a stretch as the the major cities really are just SF/Oakland, with San Jose 45 miles to the south.
How we define these areas is at the core. I'm not sure how the census works when it comes to this.
You can define the SF Bay area by many ways, and some will provide a larger number than others. However, the MSA is about 4.5 million, but when you include San Jose, and a CSA definition it suddenly becomes 8 million or more.
A good point as the comparison between the Chicago metro area and DC/Bal area are not really apples to apples comparison. MSA or CSA are just definitions. Ultimately, Chicago metro area is one unified metropolitan whereas the DC/Bal area is effectively two metro areas that are close to each other. While there are some overlaps, but DC and Bal really have two separate identities and separate media markets. In contrast, the Bay Area resembles a much more common metro area. There is a common Bay Area identity across region from the north bay, south bay to the east bay. There is also much greater economic linkage and integration with one common media market. All of which makes it effectively a common metro area by virtually most practical measures. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison might be the Chicago metro area and the Bay Area than Chicago and DC/Bal.
You realize this the whole DC/Baltimore region we're talking?
yes and they dont feel continuous or as large (and not even close) to Chicago
what always makes me chuckle is Baltimore is added when it benefits and immediately shunned whan it doesnt. These are two cities very close with their own distinct centers and identities while having some overlaps in employement centers. Chicago is one large city/metro they are different and Chicago gives off a much larger feel IMHO
to Red - thanks for the stats, I assumed it was a low birth rate but as you showed on natural increases is actually doing well there to my surprise.
As someone else said would be interesting to see who the migration is
Chciago does not feel like a stale place to me TBH, compared to growth rates and economic strength of DC few places would be on that level but your stats have me wondering who that loss to migration is
that said I dont see a gloomy picture for Chicago, maybe a transition and slower growth
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
using this logic Philadelphia (that range to NYC) is larger than Chicago and LA - but its not...
No and no to your previous comment, how is there some benefit Baltimore provides in this topic. I'm not saying DC and Baltimore combined feel larger, it doesn't. My comment was because you only referenced DC. We have shared amenities and many amenities to our own throughout the DC/Balt area, MARC rail, BWI, the Parkway, Shopping malls on both ends, hospitals with the name of both cities because it covers one relative region. Philadelphia is not a part of the same CSA with NY. DC and Baltimore although distinct are much better related like it or not.
No and no to your previous comment, how is there some benefit Baltimore provides in this topic. I'm not saying DC and Baltimore combined feel larger, it doesn't. My comment was because you only referenced DC. We have shared amenities and many amenities to our own throughout the DC/Balt area, MARC rail, BWI, the Parkway, Shopping malls on both ends, hospitals with the name of both cities because it covers one relative region. Philadelphia is not a part of the same CSA with NY. DC and Baltimore although distinct are much better related like it or not.
actually Philly and NYC now do make the commuter threshold (via burlington County NJ) - the Census made a decision not to combine them - that said they are not one region and have stronger unigue identities than do DC and Baltimore in this sense
and maybe you should look they do share rail and PT connections - and people from the NYC area use PHL and people from Philly use EWR (JFK at times too)
Hosptials in the NYC metro advertise on Philly radio etc.
They are closer in ties than you think but agree just on distance DC and Baltimore probably share more connection
A good point as the comparison between the Chicago metro area and DC/Bal area are not really apples to apples comparison. MSA or CSA are just definitions. Ultimately, Chicago metro area is one unified metropolitan whereas the DC/Bal area is effectively two metro areas that are close to each other. While there are some overlaps, but DC and Bal really have two separate identities and separate media markets. In contrast, the Bay Area resembles a much more common metro area. There is a common Bay Area identity across region from the north bay, south bay to the east bay. There is also much greater economic linkage and integration with one common media market. All of which makes it effectively a common metro area by virtually most practical measures. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison might be the Chicago metro area and the Bay Area than Chicago and DC/Bal.
yes and they dont feel continuous or as large (and not even close) to Chicago
what always makes me chuckle is Baltimore is added when it benefits and immediately shunned whan it doesnt. These are two cities very close with their own distinct centers and identities while having some overlaps in employement centers. Chicago is one large city/metro they are different and Chicago gives off a much larger feel IMHO
to Red - thanks for the stats, I assumed it was a low birth rate but as you showed on natural increases is actually doing well there to my surprise.
As someone else said would be interesting to see who the migration is
Chciago does not feel like a stale place to me TBH, compared to growth rates and economic strength of DC few places would be on that level but your stats have me wondering who that loss to migration is
that said I dont see a gloomy picture for Chicago, maybe a transition and slower growth
When it comes to Baltimore only being used when it benefits DC, and shunned when it isn't is absolutely correct. The same people that use Baltimore to inflate DC's numbers are the same ones in the Baltimore forum trashing the city like typical, uninformed out-of-towners. Living in Baltimore, I don't feel I'm in the DC area; when I'm in DC, I don't feel like I'm in the Baltimore area. IMHO,the Baltimore and DC connection feels like a smaller version of the NYC-Philly connection: two large, unique, separate cities in close proximity to one another.
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