Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think you were discounting the impact of the region's sixteen (16) military installations. To attribute the growth of that metro to the city of Norfolk, and not those bases, is ridiculous.
Outgrowth from Norfolk was a big part of it, as Norfolk's population sank like a rock during the late 20th century during the same time subdivisions popped up in VB and Ches. The military installations have been a big importer of jobs to the region, but by far the largest military installation in terms of military personnel and civilian employees is Naval Station Norfolk. Many of the personnel and civilians who work there live in places like VB and Ches and commute to NS Norfolk. But hey that's just like every other metro where suburban residents commute to jobs in the main city. And yes the other installations employ a lot of people too.
To take your post and apply it to a metro area where "white collar" jobs are the driver of the economy, it would be like saying you cannot credit Atlanta with the growth of its metro because there are office parks in Gwinnett and Cobb counties that employ a lot of people too. So maybe Atlanta "inherited" its metro from its surrounding communities?
I think you were discounting the impact of the region's sixteen (16) military installations. To attribute the growth of that metro to the city of Norfolk, and not those bases, is ridiculous.
Location is the reason why those bases are located in the area. Location is the reason why Norfolk is the largest Naval Base in the world. The largest bases are located in Norfolk (Norfolk Naval Station, Norfolk Naval Base and Little Creek Amphibious Base. Even the shipyard which is located in Portsmouth is called the Norfolk Naval Shipyard. The reason why such is large military presence is here? LOCATION ... it is situated on at best natural harbor in the United States. Location is the reason the NATO military command is headquartered here. It isn't because it is a fluke.
Location is the reason why it is the Norfolk has the 3rd busiest container and cargo port on the east coast and the 6th busiest in the nation. Location is the reason why the Port of Virginia is headquartered in Norfolk and not the other cities in the region.
Location is the reason why the Port of Virginia is served by three railroads (Norfolk Southern, CRX Corporation and Eastern Shore Railroad). Two of the railroads are Class1 (Norfolk Southern and CRX) and one of those railroads is located in Norfolk (Norfolk Southern) Norfolk also has an NS general freight classification yard, intermodal classification yards (Norfolk International Terminal).
Those 16 military bases are here because of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Norfolk is clearly the hub of this region due to its location and to argue otherwise is equally ridiculous.
Location is the reason why those bases are located in the area. Location is the reason why Norfolk is the largest Naval Base in the world. The largest bases are located in Norfolk (Norfolk Naval Station, Norfolk Naval Base and Little Creek Amphibious Base. Even the shipyard which is located in Portsmouth is called the Norfolk Naval Shipyard. The reason why such is large military presence is here? LOCATION ... it is situated on at best natural harbor in the United States. Location is the reason the NATO military command is headquartered here. It isn't because it is a fluke.
Location is the reason why it is the Norfolk has the 3rd busiest container and cargo port on the east coast and the 6th busiest in the nation. Location is the reason why the Port of Virginia is headquartered in Norfolk and not the other cities in the region.
Location is the reason why the Port of Virginia is served by three railroads (Norfolk Southern, CRX Corporation and Eastern Shore Railroad). Two of the railroads are Class1 (Norfolk Southern and CRX) and one of those railroads is located in Norfolk (Norfolk Southern) Norfolk also has an NS general freight classification yard, intermodal classification yards (Norfolk International Terminal).
Those 16 military bases are here because of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Norfolk is clearly the hub of this region due to its location and to argue otherwise is equally ridiculous.
My lady and I are considering a move to Norfolk next summer. One, she prefers it to Richmond because it has beaches and water, it is a prettier city than Rich, and it has a slower pace and less of a noisy, busy-city atmosphere. For me, I've always enjoyed Norfolk. I will never prefer it to Richmond, I'm sure, but it is beautiful and Norfolk is leading the charge for marijuana decriminalization and/or legalization in The Commonwealth. I doubt I'd want to stay there forever, but it's large enough that I'll never be completely bored...
Anyway, the purpose of me resurrecting this thread is because I've done a ton of traveling this year. Specifically, I want to revisit a conversation that compares Norfolk to Greensboro, Birmingham, and Memphis, all cities I've visited this year...
This is odd, but while I don't see all of these cities as equals, I feel that Norfolk compares to all in some way or other:
Greensboro
I've gotten really familiar with that city this year--my girlfriend's sister attends UNCG and I have an associate who frequents Greensboro and I hung out with him a couple times. Off bat, both share that multi-nodal metro thing, and both are the premier cities of their respective metros. True enough, it is arguable whether Greensboro has always held that position within the Triad, and it is arguable about how much the Tidewater today centers on just Norfolk, rather than Norfolk and Virginia Beach. However, both are the alpha cities of a large multifunctional metro...
I think the draw that while most of the premier events in both areas happen in the core cities, there is significant spillover into Winston and The Beach specifically, and even throughout the metros. I've become more impressed with both the more I've visited (many more times to Norfolk). Both have small downtown areas. And both feel roughly the same size (Norfolk feels larger by a slight margin)...
Birmingham
I find the "feel" of Birmingham and Norfolk to be very much alike; neither truly feels larger than the other. They are both culturally and historically rich, albeit with different histories and cultures. Birmingham may have slightly more of an alpha city vibe, because it's the largest city in its state. Mostly, I'm going off of feel here...
Memphis
I found Memphis to feel slightly larger, but not by a wide margin. Again, the commonality of being very culturally rich is of note. I think both are overshadowed by cities in their own state. The gap between Memphis and Nashville is larger, but Memphis has a certain charm about itself, not unlike Norfolk. Both river cities. Norfolk is far prettier. Both have a bit of a live and let live, insular personality, as if the world is not much bigger than themselves. This is an anecdotal observation of residents and how they speak about their cities...
These thoughts and observations lead me to believe that these three cities are very much peers to Norfolk. Not that they are the only peers, or that the cities mentioned are sister cities of Norfolk, just that I believe there is basis for considering them peers...
Norfolk has a larger metro population and GDP than all three cities, but the elephant in the room has to be mentioned, which is that Norfolk is centering a multi-nodal metro. If Virginia Beach and Newport News didn't exist, I'd estimate Norfolk's GDP to be roughly the same (mid-60s) or just slightly larger than these cities. For its larger metro population and GDP, I don't think anybody familiar enough would say Norfolk City feels like a larger city than either Memphis, Birmingham, or Greensboro, which supports my observations...
Also has to be mentioned that Greensboro is the smallest city of the group by nearly all relevant measures. It doesn't have the same clout as any other city mentioned, but I think a case can be made for it being a peer to these cities. It's not really lacking much in the way of amenities by comparison...
How do you all feel about these three cities as peer counterparts to Norfolk?
Greensboro is a half-step to a step below Norfolk to me and compares more favorably with Winston, Durham, Greenville, Columbia, etc. Birmingham and Memphis are more comparable but I think Jacksonville, FL just may be Norfolk's closest peer city; they are very similar when it comes to size, geography, industry (e.g., military), clout (both are a bit overlooked/underrated), etc.
Greensboro is a half-step to a step below Norfolk to me and compares more favorably with Winston, Durham, Greenville, Columbia, etc. Birmingham and Memphis are more comparable but I think Jacksonville, FL just may be Norfolk's closest peer city; they are very similar when it comes to size, geography, industry (e.g., military), clout (both are a bit overlooked/underrated), etc.
I can agree that Jacksonville is probably Norfolk's closest peer. They both are underrated. I have an aunt who has lived in Jacksonville for about 12, 13 years now, but ive never gone...
I think an argument can be made that Norfolk is the most underrated anchor city of a million-plus metro in the country...
I can agree that Jacksonville is probably Norfolk's closest peer. They both are underrated. I have an aunt who has lived in Jacksonville for about 12, 13 years now, but ive never gone...
I think an argument can be made that Norfolk is the most underrated anchor city of a million-plus metro in the country...
I can agree with that; it's very overlooked. I think a big reason for that is that fact that it's in a geographic cul-de-sac and you don't have to pass through it on the way to other places.
I'm due a trip to Jacksonville. Everything I've read and heard establishes that it is probably the closest city to Norfolk...
I just sized up Birmingham and Norfolk more in depth, based on my own experiences and on a more anal study of both...
I actually prefer Birmingham as a city, biggest reason being that it's got the better cultural amenities of the two. Norfolk certainly isn't devoid of culture, but I have to think it takes a resounding ass kicking when lining up the cultures of both. From retail to sports to performing arts (and one of my best friends I grew up with worked for the VSC for years) to nightlife to higher education to events and festivals, Birmingham is a city with more going on. This is probably a direct byproduct of the fact that Norfolk has other cities in close proximity, but it is what it is. Birmingham by far has a more diverse economy, and a faster growing economy...
I'd also say that Birmingham is more culturally relevant than Norfolk. Birmingham is the Alpha city in its state. Norfolk isn't a true Alpha, although it is the primary city of HRVA, and yet, it still wouldn't be the Alpha city within Virginia even if it were a fully dominant city. Birmingham has greater name recognition (for better or worse). So, I prefer Birmingham as a city...
That being said, I'd venture to say that Norfolk is the more complete city, or better city, at this point. Aside from the fact that Birmingham has much better cultural amenities, there isn't much else to hang it's hat on versus Norfolk:
Birmingham has the more diverse and faster growing economy, but doesn't run an economic sweep. Norfolk has the larger economy, habitually lower unemployment, higher wages (and this matters because cost of living is pretty much the same), and is considerably less impoverished...
Norfolk has a better urban fabric and overall better urban aesthetic. The poverty is so much more in your face in Birmingham, and it would obviously surprise no one that Norfolk is the more walkable city. And it has to be mentioned that Norfolk has higher population growth than Birmingham. Norfolk has higher population growth than almost nobody, so it's meaningful to note. I don't know if that tells the whole story of "desirability" for these cities, but these things have to be factored in. To go along with this, I feel like Norfolk has better architecture and while neither of the cities have on the whole a better collection of neighborhoods than the other, Norfolk's neighborhoods look better...
I would never pick a city (neighborhood yes, but not a city) to live in based on crime rates, because crime is as predictable as unpredictable, but this does impact quality of life and Bears mentioning. Birmingham has long been one of the most dangerous cities in the entire nation. The crime gap between the two is significant...
Lastly, Norfolk is the more diverse city, more ethnically diverse, more culturally diverse, and that matters. Norfolk has a much larger public transportation infrastructure, but aside from that, has better and more extensive infrastructure, period. This is probably a function of Norfolk's location as much as anything, but hey...it just is what it is...
So I prefer Birmingham but feel Norfolk is the better city overall. I definitely think they are peers. I'm going to give a more thoughtful analysis to my Memphis and Greensboro comparisons as well...
Are there expansion projects underway for Norfolk's light rail system? I feel like the presence of that system is indicative of something.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
