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As a lifelong Chicagoan, I understand the desire for natural scenery... but from a pure academic perspective, there is absolutely NO reason to pay more than in-state tuition at the University of Illinois if you're majoring in engineering or business outside of getting into an Ivy League or Ivy-level (e.g. Stanford/MIT) school. Out of all of the schools that you've listed, the only school that are comparable or better compared to Illinois for engineering and business are Michigan and Northwestern (which doesn't have an undergrad business program but elite financial firms recruit there more for the overall prestige). I could also see an argument for going to Indiana for business because its Kelley school has a great reputation, but that's about it. Having worked for several consulting and tech firms, I think a lot of people in this thread are understating the material advantage that U of I has on the engineering front even compared to a solid school like Penn State or Colorado. You can take a look at the list of firms that recruit at Illinois Engineering (e.g. Google, the major consulting firms, etc.) and they're as top notch as you'll find outside of Stanford and MIT. It would be one thing if your son wanted to be a liberal arts major, in which case it wouldn't really matter. However, engineering and business happen to be the two areas where U of I is a top tier institution.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't wrap my head around paying *more* for out-of-state tuition when the reputations of the specific engineering and business programs at U of I that you could receive for in-state tuition are CLEARLY better than the other options that you have listed (and in the case of engineering, we're talking about an elite level right under Stanford/MIT). If your son wants the ski lifestyle, then that's great, but he ought to look at the long-term career opportunities coming from a top institution that could actually provide him the resources to *afford* that ski lifestyle for the rest of his life as opposed to spending *extra* money on college that doesn't have as great of academics in the specific areas that he's interested in.
If this was a debate between paying more for Northwestern or Michigan compared to going to Illinois, then I think it's a tough decision... but that's because Northwestern and Michigan are higher on the academic pecking order compared to Illinois. That is definitely not the case for schools like Penn State or Colorado - you'd be paying more money for lower-ranked schools compared to Illinois (especially for engineering). It would also be different if you thought your son really didn't want to attend a large flagship school and maybe needed a smaller school environment (which is understandable for many people). However, when you take away the mountains, Penn State and Colorado are going to have very similar campus cultures compared to Illinois and they're similar in size. Once again, paying more just for the mountains (especially when it's a clear academic downgrade) is hard for me to understand, but maybe that's just me.
You said it better than I could have. If DS wants to get a master's, almost a necessity in either field (my friend called it a "union card" for engineering) he could go to CU then.
The State's finances, commitment to UI system, a concern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank
As a lifelong Chicagoan, I understand the desire for natural scenery... but from a pure academic perspective, there is absolutely NO reason to pay more than in-state tuition at the University of Illinois if you're majoring in engineering or business outside of getting into an Ivy League or Ivy-level (e.g. Stanford/MIT) school.... You can take a look at the list of firms that recruit at Illinois Engineering (e.g. Google, the major consulting firms, etc.) and they're as top notch as you'll find outside of Stanford and MIT. It would be one thing if your son wanted to be a liberal arts major, in which case it wouldn't really matter. However, engineering and business happen to be the two areas where U of I is a top tier institution.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't wrap my head around paying *more* for out-of-state tuition when the reputations of the specific engineering and business programs at U of I that you could receive for in-state tuition are CLEARLY better than the other options that you have listed (and in the case of engineering, we're talking about an elite level right under Stanford/MIT).
I'm glad for OP & future readers that an engineer weighed in. UI's ranking & selectivity is well known in the admissions world, but, for the non-engineers among us, validation from the working world is reassuring.
Still, even if the state divests completely and UI as a whole becomes recognizable from the institution it was at the apex of public support, the Engineering program will remain outstanding. It is a high priority. Engineering students may come across protests about various cuts, but their education will not be affected.
Last edited by Rhino4401; 11-23-2016 at 11:17 AM..
Reason: Tried to fix link. Twice. Idk why NYT hates me.
Thank you for all the feedback. BTW, we are visiting University of Wisconsin and Indiana (Kelly business) this week... We're going to take some trips out of the Midwest next, and also check out some private schools.
As far as U of IL goes, we have been concerned about state funding cuts so appreciate feedback on that. I agree that Illinois engineering/business is currently more academically competitive than some of the schools he's looking at, but he is not looking for the most competitive engineering or business school out there, he is looking for the best fit with the most opportunities for him.
DS is a good student, but he does not strive to be the very top-performing student at the very top school - he has other priorities. He may likely be overwhelmed if academically competing against some of the top engineering students from around the world. A school like, for example, Michigan State or Penn State (which is an "academic match" for his GPA/test scores) may be more academically (as well as socially) appropriate for him.
My friends whose kids are going to e.g. Iowa engineering, IU Kelly business (after being accepted to Illinois) are quite happy with the financial packages given, the study abroad/co-op/research opportunities, and the fact they were freshman direct admits to their respective programs (they did not get this from Illinois - no promises there). The parents and students felt that there would be more opportunities at the non-IL schools (whether this is based on state finances or the academic competitiveness of IL - I'm not sure). They also preferred the environment of the other schools - e.g. less Greek life, felt safer on campus (due to IL cuts to security staff?), more professor interaction, better student/teacher ratios (due to IL staff cuts?), etc.
Frank the Tank, I believe DS will do fine financially because of his academic level/technical aptitude combined with personal characteristics of financial drive, ambition, hard work, communication/social skill, entrepreneurship, etc. From my perspective in the engineering business, his career/financial outlook will not be encumbered by him choosing, a slightly less selective school over U of IL. I mean just about all the schools we're looking at are in the top 25-30 for business (U of I is #15, Penn State and Michigan State are tied at #23). Best Undergraduate Business Programs Rankings | US News Best Colleges
p.s. He's not picking a school "for skiing," not sure how that was communicated. I mentioned he liked outdoor activities, cold/snow, and skiing (that is the environment/"vibe" he likes) but nowhere did I say that was his top priority or a deal breaker. A poster mentioned Clemson which doesn't have much snow, but it sounded like it might be a good fit so we put that on our list of schools to look into.
And out of the blue today my DS asked if we could look at Florida Gulf Coast U - where the heck did that even come from - never heard of this school which is in a hot climate.
Indiana Kelley is definitely strong for business, particularly in finance and marketing. As I've noted, I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing IU over U of I for business (and I say that as an Illinois business grad). Wisconsin is also a very good across the board school with a *fantastic* college town, although I believe there are few or no direct admits to their business program. (Engineering is different from my recollection.) People choosing IU-Kelley or Wisconsin over Illinois certainly isn't uncommon. I haven't seen too many people choose Michigan State, Iowa or Iowa State over Illinois (assuming they got into the program that they wanted at Illinois).
The only thing that I'll note is that I don't really see huge variances in the *cultures* between the Big Ten public schools. I know there's sometimes a "grass is greener" syndrome with high school students, but all of the Big Ten public schools have large Greek systems, large classes, big variances from student to student, strong research programs, etc. Northwestern is definitely much different than Illinois. It's also a heck of lot different at, say, Notre Dame or DePaul in terms of culture. However, the differences between Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan State, etc. when it comes to campus atmosphere are pretty muted. Once again, someone that really needs a smaller school environment probably isn't going to thrive at Illinois. However, if you're looking at a lot of other Big Ten or large flagships like Colorado, just be sure to not make the proverbial mountain out of a mole hill regarding perceived differences if you're talking about a large difference in tuition.
Personally, I think the Illinois state financial situation is going to have little material impact on U of I. It's certainly not a positive, but honestly U of I has already been transitioning for the past 15 years to a quasi-private school model in terms of being largely self-funded with only a small percentage from the state. U of I's international reputation means that it has a large presence of top international students that can afford to pay private school-level tuition prices (which I know a lot of in-state people have been complaining about lately, butbthe school needs to find funding if the state isn't going to provide it). The University of Michigan and Michigan State have been in the same boat for years (and is why out-of-state tuition at U of M is now every bit as expensive as Northwestern for the sticker price). Frankly, U of I is the one part of the state public sector that can support itself. The school has a huge endowment, large donor support from alums and corporations, and international tuition that has already allowed it to go without much state funding. The schools that are really screwed by the state financial crisis are places like Chicago State and the directional schools (i.e. Eastern Illinois). Those smaller schools don't have the same resources as U of I and we're much more dependent on state funding.
Apologies for the gusher of thoughts as I've been doing a lot off research for college funding for my twin kids that are still 10 years away from going to school... and the future tuition numbers frankly frighten me (so I'm hyper-aware of the best ROI right now). So, I'm not just saying these things as an Illinois alum. If we lived in Indiana, it would be tough for me to recommend passing up in-state tuition at Indiana or Purdue unless there was a VERY compelling reason. The Big Ten states are fortunate to be able to pay in-state tuition at a lot of great schools, which can't be said for a lot of other parts of the country.
Last edited by Frank the Tank; 11-23-2016 at 08:59 PM..
Just wanted to update this thread since I got such good input, and maybe our experiences will help others.
My son is a senior now and applied to the following colleges (quite a few schools!):
- Montana state (accepted, awarded $36k presidential scholarship)
- Michigan State (accepted, direct admit to Business school, waiting for scholarship info)
No response yet:
- University of Washington Seattle
- University of Minnesota Twin Cities
- University of Colorado Boulder
- University of Wisconsin Madison
- Miami University of Ohio
- Ohio State
- Indiana University Bloomington
- Penn State University
- Clemson University
Some of these schools are "reach schools." His cumulative GPA is a 3.7 (low, but mostly AP classes and incl. AP calculus/sciences) and his composite ACT is a 32 (meets threshold for some school's merit scholarships). He is at a competitive HS and has a lot of extracurriculars/sports/volunteering, good recommendations, and pretty well-written essays IMHO, but we'll see how things pan out.
BTW, he wrote 10+ essays and I think many of the essay prompts asked how he would contribute toward diversity at the school. I just thought that was good, and interesting for him to think about and respond to, as a white male.
Also, after four years in his HS pre-engineering program and a summer internship at an engineering company, he has decided he definitely does not want to study engineering. Instead, he is interested in economics, finance, or accounting (taking these HS courses now and loves them), and is applying as a business major.
Will keep you posted on his journey. Feel free to offer more feedback!
Indiana Kelley is definitely strong for business, particularly in finance and marketing. As I've noted, I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing IU over U of I for business (and I say that as an Illinois business grad). Wisconsin is also a very good across the board school with a *fantastic* college town, although I believe there are few or no direct admits to their business program. (Engineering is different from my recollection.) People choosing IU-Kelley or Wisconsin over Illinois certainly isn't uncommon. I haven't seen too many people choose Michigan State, Iowa or Iowa State over Illinois (assuming they got into the program that they wanted at Illinois).
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Frank, I appreciated your input on this thread and we've spent the last year discussing U of I (with counselors, current students, parents). Ultimately, son did not apply there. No doubt that U of I is an excellent school, but it is just not the right fit. A couple of my son's friends who are at U of I engineering are pretty unhappy there, so I'm sure that impacted his opinion. Also, we met with his HS counselor to go over his college list, and she point-blank said she cannot recommend U of I because she is getting feedback from too many former students that they are unhappy there (I can't believe she even said that, but was thankful for her honesty).
Why do you think this is? Is it because the high-paying foreign student population has gotten so large that the local IL student feels they don't socially/academically fit in anymore? I'm not trying to bash U of I, I'm just trying to figure out what the issue is. Indiana's Purdue, for example, is a nearby highly competitive engineering school, yet it doesn't have this negativity problem.
Also, I know this is minor, but we attended two different college fairs (one for each kid) and at both events the college reps manning the U of I tables seemed completely disinterested in prospective students/parents. When we asked questions, they looked bored -lol. Maybe they feel they don't need to market to area HS students since they get enough applications from overseas? It almost felt like they were trying to send the vibe they don't want IL students to apply. These kinds of things make impressions.
It's too bad, because one of these college fairs (for my daughter) was marketed to a select group of high-achieving IL HS students with some pretty well-heeled Chicago parents. The U of I college table with the grumpy reps was situated near tables from Northwestern, U of Mich, John Hopkins, and Vanderbilt - these tables had very welcoming reps and long lines of students/parents - U of I table had no line.
When a kid consistently hears negative reports about a school from friends there, has a counselor who doesn't recommend the school, meets reps who are disinterested in him, finds the campus visit unwelcoming, it's pretty hard to recommend that is the right school, even with the excellent programs (especially when he crosses the border to U of Wisc or Indiana U and gets the complete opposite experience). And other states with pretty good programs, like Ohio, Iowa are rolling out the red carpet for IL students.
As a lifelong Chicagoan, I understand the desire for natural scenery... but from a pure academic perspective, there is absolutely NO reason to pay more than in-state tuition at the University of Illinois if you're majoring in engineering or business outside of getting into an Ivy League or Ivy-level (e.g. Stanford/MIT) school. Out of all of the schools that you've listed, the only school that are comparable or better compared to Illinois for engineering and business are Michigan and Northwestern (which doesn't have an undergrad business program but elite financial firms recruit there more for the overall prestige). I could also see an argument for going to Indiana for business because its Kelley school has a great reputation, but that's about it. Having worked for several consulting and tech firms, I think a lot of people in this thread are understating the material advantage that U of I has on the engineering front even compared to a solid school like Penn State or Colorado. You can take a look at the list of firms that recruit at Illinois Engineering (e.g. Google, the major consulting firms, etc.) and they're as top notch as you'll find outside of Stanford and MIT. It would be one thing if your son wanted to be a liberal arts major, in which case it wouldn't really matter. However, engineering and business happen to be the two areas where U of I is a top tier institution.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't wrap my head around paying *more* for out-of-state tuition when the reputations of the specific engineering and business programs at U of I that you could receive for in-state tuition are CLEARLY better than the other options that you have listed (and in the case of engineering, we're talking about an elite level right under Stanford/MIT). If your son wants the ski lifestyle, then that's great, but he ought to look at the long-term career opportunities coming from a top institution that could actually provide him the resources to *afford* that ski lifestyle for the rest of his life as opposed to spending *extra* money on college that doesn't have as great of academics in the specific areas that he's interested in.
If this was a debate between paying more for Northwestern or Michigan compared to going to Illinois, then I think it's a tough decision... but that's because Northwestern and Michigan are higher on the academic pecking order compared to Illinois. That is definitely not the case for schools like Penn State or Colorado - you'd be paying more money for lower-ranked schools compared to Illinois (especially for engineering). It would also be different if you thought your son really didn't want to attend a large flagship school and maybe needed a smaller school environment (which is understandable for many people). However, when you take away the mountains, Penn State and Colorado are going to have very similar campus cultures compared to Illinois and they're similar in size. Once again, paying more just for the mountains (especially when it's a clear academic downgrade) is hard for me to understand, but maybe that's just me.
Did you and your son visit all the colleges that he applied to?
- Montana state - drove through campus
- Michigan State - official full-day tour/met with reps
- University of Washington - drove through campus
- University of Minnesota - drove through campus
- University Colorado - official full-day tour/met with reps
- University Wisconsin - official full-day tour/met with rep
- Miami University - official full-day tour/met with reps
- Ohio State - did not visit, looked good from virtual tour
- Indiana University - official full-day tour/met with reps
- Penn State - official full-day tour/met with reps
- Clemson - did not visit, looked good from virtual tour
He will visit/revisit his preferred schools once accepted.
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The State's finances, commitment to UI system, a concern
