What about New Britain? (Hartford, Waterbury: sales, rental, loan)
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How do we as a state "view" the poor? We have one of the most liberal spending policies for the "poor" in the nation. 2/3 of our state budget is social services.
I'm not talking about legislation, I'm talking about how citizens like u and me view the poor. And do you have proof of 2/3rds of the state budget going to social services? If so, post the link or the newspaper that says so. I also want to see what the website defines as "social services". Its not that Im sayin ur obsurd, its just that for connecticut to have such a small number of people living at or below the poverty line, your saying that most of the people millions of dollars (2/3rds budget) on a small number of people, when many of the programs are reimbursed by the government.
Not to mention, most government programs end after 3 years. Some programs even require participants to pay for a portion with their income.
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Originally Posted by JViello
You yourself are an example of how we "view the poor" in CT. You go to UCONN and don't pay for it.
Actually, I said most of my tuition is paid for. 65% to be exact. And none of that money has to do with the State of Connecticut, they're all federal grants.
So I actually would get the same in SC
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Originally Posted by JViello
What people associate "poor" and "inner city" with in our state is basically the social ills that plague our nation as a whole. Do I think all folks in the inner city are that way? No, of course not. But the majority do live a certain lifestyle that is almost counter culture to what most "family folks" want.
What are u talking about? "most of these people". What city are u referring to? Social ills? So there all criminals? A certain lifestyle?
Stop beating around the bush. Be more specific.
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Originally Posted by JViello
No, of course not. They want a better life for their family and work hard for it. The inner city seems to work against that.
Well DUH. Isnt that what everybody wants? I don't kno why u think that poor people choose to be poor. Everybody wants the best for their families. Bloomfield is an example of Blacks moving out of the ghetto. North Haven is an example of Italians moving out of the ghetto. In time, it will happen. You just have to be patient.
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Originally Posted by JViello
(To the people who don't know anything about section 8 - right now it's the biggest scam going in the state. No longer is it just "the projects" but ANY property can be applied for and "approved". So the "poor" folks can find a very nice apartment in say Manchester or Vernon and the state picks up 80% or more of the rent. Nice eh? Pfft, I would gladly live in a 3 bed apartment and only pay $250.00 a month, you kididng me? Well maybe not. )
REFERENCES???? I have one..Go to the Columbia University Institute on Poverty and search the connecticut section. It will show you how much Connecticut pays for section 8 (most receive only 50%).
PLEASE POST ANY OTHER WEBSITES THAT CONTRADICT THIS.
And the state pays for community college? Post that website too.
How do we as a state "view" the poor? We have one of the most liberal spending policies for the "poor" in the nation. 2/3 of our state budget is social services.
You yourself are an example of how we "view the poor" in CT. You go to UCONN and don't pay for it.
Try that in SC.
What people associate "poor" and "inner city" with in our state is basically the social ills that plague our nation as a whole. Do I think all folks in the inner city are that way? No, of course not. But the majority do live a certain lifestyle that is almost counter culture to what most "family folks" want.
If not, why when most "minority" folks have the chance to flee Hartford, they do for places like Bloomfield, Windsor, Manchester etc.
Are they racist against their own people?
No, of course not. They want a better life for their family and work hard for it. The inner city seems to work against that.
Well that might sound good, but it's not reality.
First off, what consitutes "poverty"? The threshold in 2007 was $25,364.00 and that is before taxes and does not take into account noncash benefits (such as food stamps and housing subsidies) and we KNOW how much section 8 pays of most folks rent in the city.
(To the people who don't know anything about section 8 - right now it's the biggest scam going in the state. No longer is it just "the projects" but ANY property can be applied for and "approved". So the "poor" folks can find a very nice apartment in say Manchester or Vernon and the state picks up 80% or more of the rent. Nice eh? Pfft, I would gladly live in a 3 bed apartment and only pay $250.00 a month, you kididng me? Well maybe not. )
So you can earn 25K a year or about $520.00 per week, get state aid for heat, electricity, health care, food, and have them pay 80% of your rent and still be considered "poor".
Factor in the rent subsidy, aid for food and utilities, and health care and total monthly income falls in around $3880.00.
That's not including all the subsidies for "adult education" via the community colleges etc out there that will cost them NOTHING to attend.
I don't consider that "living in poverty" sorry. And in all honesty, I wonder why I work so hard as that's not a bad deal and I don't make much more than that.
So what do you think should happen? Should the government run housing in the city? Oh wait, we already did that...the failed concept call "The Projects" which are now and have been torn down around the state. (Don't worry, I got the tab for that "mistake" of social engineering.)
If the "poor people" are not responsible for how the city looks, where does all the garbage come from? What about the graffitti?
So you say "renters" have no responsibility to care for thier property?
There is also a flip side for property owners you know...most are not "greedy landlords". Some are, but most are not.
They make an investment (Last I checked, that's still legal and moral to do in the United States) in property, people move in and tend to TRASH the place because they don't give a sh*t about anything.
So the landlord has a choice...pour money into the property so it can get trashed again, or collect the rent and then sell his investment.
Which would you do if that's where your paycheck came from?
And, AND I would go so far as to say the STATE has enabled a system that ATTRACTS greedy landlords via section 8. How nice is it to purchase a 3 family home, get it section 8 approved, charge $1300.00 per month per apartment and have the state pick up 80% + of the tab! No worries about "not getting paid" heck you're getting top dollar for the place. Hold on to it for 10 years and dump it! I think those slum lords are just as bad and it's disgusting.
THAT is how the STATE can screw things up by becoming "nanny".
Yep, just trying to survive while the state pays $850.00 of an $1100.00 aparment, the state pays for food, the state pays for heat on 80* while the windows and doors are open (You know you've seen it because *I* have and we come from the same sewer), the state pays for health care.
The basics are covered. What I think you mean is "surviving life in the hood". Well guess what. Most of that crap is self inflicted through lifestyle choices.
Most people need to start giving a crap about their neighborhood and family and stop the nonsense. The state has no responsibility to raise your children nor should it.
When the neighborhoods are out of control EVERYONE who wants a better life for their family go elsewhere when they can. What we are left with is urban "ghettos" where nothing changes because the people won't change their lifestyle.
I truely believe...I mean really honestly believe that CT is a foreshadow as to what we are on the road to in the United States. Most communist countries had the same issue. The rich elite and the rest of the "people" stuck in bread lines. It may not get to that point for a few generations, but we are heading there, mark my words.
Hope you understand a little better now.
Great, you posted exactly what I wanted to get at last night but didn't have the time.
I'm not talking about legislation, I'm talking about how citizens like u and me view the poor. And do you have proof of 2/3rds of the state budget going to social services? If so, post the link or the newspaper that says so. I also want to see what the website defines as "social services". Its not that Im sayin ur obsurd, its just that for connecticut to have such a small number of people living at or below the poverty line, your saying that most of the people millions of dollars (2/3rds budget) on a small number of people, when many of the programs are reimbursed by the government.
Not to mention, most government programs end after 3 years. Some programs even require participants to pay for a portion with their income.
I'm short on time right now, but to be fair, I believe the 60% + rate included a lot of state services under that umbrella.
SO, here's a link to FY06 that shows the BASE of social services programs we are talking about taking up 33% of our entire state budget. That's a LOT.
Actually, I said most of my tuition is paid for. 65% to be exact. And none of that money has to do with the State of Connecticut, they're all federal grants.
So I actually would get the same in SC
Fine, whatever - bottom line is you are getting a very large subsidy and still bitching how the poor are downtrodden...the entitlement victom mentality.
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What are u talking about?
You know damn well what I'm talking about and I don't have the time to spoon feed you information right now. Perhaps another time.
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Well DUH. Isnt that what everybody wants? I don't kno why u think that poor people choose to be poor.
Well first off we alread showed that the "poor" standard equals around $3500.00 month total income - but I digress...
They do choose to be "poor", it's a choice. ANYONE and EVERYONE who is not handicapped has the opportunity to improve their lot in life in the United States...problem is, many people don't want to bust their ass to do it.
Gimme gimme gimme...that's all you hear.
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REFERENCES???? I have one..Go to the Columbia University Institute on Poverty and search the connecticut section. It will show you how much Connecticut pays for section 8 (most receive only 50%).
PLEASE POST ANY OTHER WEBSITES THAT CONTRADICT THIS.
And the state pays for community college? Post that website too.
The state of CT gov website is a start - do your own research. If I have time I'll dig up the info. I didn't make it up.
They do choose to be "poor", it's a choice. ANYONE and EVERYONE who is not handicapped has the opportunity to improve their lot in life in the United States...problem is, many people don't want to bust their ass to do it.
While I agree that *nearly* anyone can pick themselves up, it's a lot harder to do if you live in the ghetto with $0. I think that's partially the reason people are so discouraged - folks in Bridgeport see upper class Fairfield kids 2 miles down the road getting free rides, while they know darn well they're going to be spending 40% of their life paying back loans.
While I agree that *nearly* anyone can pick themselves up, it's a lot harder to do if you live in the ghetto with $0. I think that's partially the reason people are so discouraged - folks in Bridgeport see upper class Fairfield kids 2 miles down the road getting free rides, while they know darn well they're going to be spending 40% of their life paying back loans.
I guess that's the way things go...
Can't argue with that and I do know what you are saying.
The saying I know is "Guarantee of equal opportunity, but no guarantee of equal results."
Lots of immigrants come here with nothing - NOTHING and become "well off" in their own lifetime. No mystery to it IMO.
I can honestly tell you I came from nothing. I moved to Orlando with a bag of clothes and $300.00. Stepped off the Greyhound bus and stayed at the Salvation Army for a week before renting a room.
Washed dishes, worked at Hardees did what I had to do. Put myself through UCF as well. No grants, no loans.
When I left O-Town I was living in a 3 bedroom house, was "Union" with Disney (Working as a DJ), had a stake in a promotional music company that is now international (Why did I give up my stake! DOH! ).
That's the truth. I'm nothing special...I'm just too dumb to fail.
Yes, regarding the FF kids, it is how it goes. There was a time when the "poor" generation did what they had too to get to a "higher" level with the forknowledge to set their kids up to do better then they did - self sacrifice...3-4 generations later, you have some of those "FF Kids" coming from that heritage.
I can't fault the "rich" parents for setting their kids up "right". Granted some get spoiled, and I don't agree with that, but I strive to make sure my son has a better "start" then I did.
There was a time when the "poor" generation did what they had too to get to a "higher" level with the forknowledge to set their kids up to do better then they did - self sacrifice...3-4 generations later, you have some of those "FF Kids" coming from that heritage.
Know what I mean?
Yep - it has to begin somewhere. Same with my grandparents. Dad's parents came from Italy, mom's from Australia - all with next to nothing. Mom's parents worked their butts off and purchased a small house in New Canaan with a white fence (their dream) and Dad's parents worked in factories their whole lives and saved, saved, saved until they could afford a duplex in Fairfield. Too bad they weren't around long enough to enjoy the fruits of their labor. That just goes to show you that back in the day, lower FFC wasn't what it is today.
BTW - I respect you a lot for picking yourself up. It's not an easy thing to do.
Fine, whatever - bottom line is you are getting a very large subsidy and still bitching how the poor are downtrodden...the entitlement victom mentality.
They do choose to be "poor", it's a choice. ANYONE and EVERYONE who is not handicapped has the opportunity to improve their lot in life in the United States...problem is, many people don't want to bust their ass to do it.
Gimme gimme gimme...that's all you hear.
The state of CT gov website is a start - do your own research. If I have time I'll dig up the info. I didn't make it up.
J, you need to start reading my post a lot more carefully. My intentions were to challenge the person who claimed that New Britain was "infested" with people who were trying to bring the school system down. Seeing how we here at city-data are all here to provide factual information about the state of Connecticut, I tried to include my opinion, based on my experience, on what njohnson might be missing on the facts of New Britain.
Apparently, you all belief that the poor "infect" cities like rats and roaches. But since you all do not have a problem with picking on the poor, you might as well take a look at some facts.
Disclaimer-These facts are not intended to persuade anyone that the poor in New Britain, CT "choose" to be poor.
-87% of the residents in New Britain, CT are renters
-Poverty rate among disabled males: 18.4%
-Disabled rate among poor males: 31%
-Poverty rate among disabled females: 19%
-Disability rate among poor females: 28%
(By this information, we can conclude that out of the approx. 9200 people that live in poverty in New Britain, we can conclude that there is a very large percentage that are disabled)
-48 percent of New Britain's poor do not work. This includes the number of disabled persons.
-27% (2480) of those who live in poverty in New Britain, CT are children.
-74% of those who live in New Britain have a parent that is a single mother.
(Imagine raising multiple children by yourself? You probably would need state help right? I know this is gonna catch a lot of "well thats not my problem", but so be it. It is what it is.)
Let me give you a down to Earth reality of how this all works based on something that is hitting home right now to my family in a town that directly correlates to New Britain.
My parents have lived in the same home for 30+ years, were the first ones in the neighborhood and saw it progress in the early 1980s to a 30 home street that is a circle and had been hard working middle class Americans for the good portion of it's life. The houses are mostly single family ranch homes and a few duplexes near the end of the street mixed in, nothing incredibly fancy.
As long as we could remember the owners were all hard working and took care of their properties and showed pride in their homes and the land they own. Over time some of the original owners moved on and the houses were bought in one case by two families who live together in the house, in another is being rented, and in a third was bought for $50,000 from a woman who died, who's family just wanted to dump the property.
In all three cases the street has been slowly transformed. The residents in these properties don't take care of their lawns, have dilapidated exteriors on their homes, have garbage that sits in their yard, broken down cars that sit in the road, and annoy the neighbors with cars with loud exhausts and stereos as well as dirt bikes they drive around the neighborhood. In one case when I stop by I try to figure out how many people live there as there are 6 cars always at a single house.
You may say they are minding their business or are allowed to do what they want with their property but what is happening is they are killing the neighborhood from the inside out. No one wants to live next to someone like that and when homes for sale have open houses it becomes a red flag. Now property values are forced to drop because a few are killing the neighborhood. Next what happens is that with property values dropping more lower income people move into the neighborhood duplicating the problem until eventually the entire neighborhood is killed and middle class people who are house hunting don't want to move there. What ends up happening is the only people left are the old timers who refuse to move until they die or go to a nursing home. You can usually spot these homes because they are in better condition than the ones around them and may have an American flag on the doorstep
It doesn't happen overnight but it happens and I've seen it slowly progress with my parents over the years.
I have no problem with people who are poor, let me say that. I only have a problem with people who are lazy and think they are entitled to the world, those who leach off the government while not trying, and those who put themselves in the situation they are in by either having children too early or by dropping out of school. I admire those who worked their ways up, my family did it when they came here from Puerto Rico and many others have as well. I find it inspiring to come from nothing and beat the odds.
Fine, whatever - bottom line is you are getting a very large subsidy and still bitching how the poor are downtrodden...the entitlement victom mentality.
.
One day, I was at McDonalds with my friends and I told you i was hungry and I couldn't cook. You gave $5 dollars to me, without even looking at my friends. Wrong thing to do. If you really wanted to help us, then you would still teach us how to cook. But you don't know me from **** so to you it probably seemed like the right thing to do. You can even get to go home and tell your wife that you did a good deed today. Now look, theres even more hungry kids at McDonalds the next day. And guess what they want?
The government has to realize that instead of taking money out of the hood (headstart, after school programs, republicans, 2006, remember?), they should be trying to put more money into the hood with better oversight. Because as long as theres a McDonalds, there gonna be hungry kids standing outside, waiting for someone to give them fries or to teach them how to cook.
Trust me, I know this through experience. Thanks for the $5 J, it will go well in the long run. Thats all I have to ***** about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello
They do choose to be "poor", it's a choice. ANYONE and EVERYONE who is not handicapped has the opportunity to improve their lot in life in the United States...problem is, many people don't want to bust their ass to do it.
Gimme gimme gimme...that's all you hear.
How can you hear these people? Do you work at Social services? What do they look like? Are they poor teens with infants? Disabled people? Poor Kids? Homeless?
By the way, according to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, Section 8 provides 50% assistance to those who apply. There is usually "a long waiting list" and many cities eventually "close the sign up list". The program is available for the elderly, the disabled, and very poor people. Applicants may not exceed 30% of the area's income. Preference is given to the homeless, those that can prove that they pay 50% of their income for rent, and those who are involuntarily displaced.
I also found out from census.gov that there was a 7.1% poverty rate in Connecticut. So you are trying to tell me that 2/3rds of the states revenue is given to 7% of the population? And that link you provided is garbage. In a way it disproves you, it says that only 66% of the needy are represented in the Department of Social Services budget. So by saying that, your saying that about 75% of the revenue of the state goes to DSS. Can't be true but if you find me some good facts (ie the budget of the State of Connecticut for fiscal year 2005-06), I'll proudly sit down and shut my mouth.
Question: how can we prevent the scenario that njohnson describes? I don't see a way to exclude the "undesirable poor" without also pricing out the working poor. But if we put all poor folks in the same place, the worst will generally drag everyone down.
Also, what would folks like to see happen to those who are unwilling to work? Starvation? Is it even possible to give help to those who need it, without also giving aid to those who don't deserve it? What policies can CT enact, as a state, to bring that about?
I guess I just always wonder where we expect the indigent poor to go, and what we expect them to do. If we were (for instance) to expel all the poor folks from Hartford, whether through force or through gentrification, where would -- where should -- they go?
I also think that we massively underestimate the permanent disadvantage that people have when they grow up in severe poverty. It's one thing to say "Everyone can always pull themselves up by their bootstraps", but it's a different story when you're talking about someone who grew up with mild brain damage from malnourishment, lead paint, and/or beatings from your parents. Even if things aren't that extreme, there's absolutely no substitute for the opportunities -- for love, for learning, for growth -- that are missed in those first eighteen years. It's something that's easy to take for granted if you had it.
And then there's race, always the elephant in the room. JViello, too, I would invite you to remember that there was a time that you wouldn't have been hired for most jobs, because of your Italian background. Your story is a brave and admirable one, but its happy ending would have been a lot harder to come by, 100 years ago -- a lot of doors would've been slammed in your face, literally or figuratively. That's basically a non-issue for Italians now, but there are still a lot of people who wouldn't hire a black person, or someone with a name that connoted "ghetto-ness" to the reader. It may not be legal, but the resumé still goes in the trash, unread. Equal opportunity is a great ideal, but I don't think it's here yet in reality. How would any of us react if we knew we'd been denied an opportunity because of our race? Would we stay noble, or would we start to get embittered and, maybe, be tempted to stop playing by the rules? I don't know.
So how does CT deal with these problems, in a way that doesn't screw over the honest poor? The only truthful answer is that I have no idea, but I'm hopeful that we're on the cusp of a new era of frugality and optimism. We'll see.
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