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I don't think she's smelling. I seem to recall the longest recorded instance of something like this going on was like 7 years. I would guess she's being given some sort of medication to prevent the bacteria that decompose the body from building up. Her brain is most likely the consistency of pudding though
There's just no other way to phrase this:
Isn't the body going to....rot soon? Start smelling? What happens then?
Signed,
Grossly Curious
I asked my doctor about this. He told me that as long as her body is being nourished and she is given physical therapy, she can last a very long time because she is young. In other words, her body won't rot as long as it is kept alive artificially. Machines apparently are taking over what her brain would normally be doing. What her mother is supposedly seeing as movement is not any kind of "awakening" but just a physiological response to the stimuli being given Jahi's body. Even if she is moving it is an involuntary response and not a controlled one coming from anything she is consciously doing.
I have to agree with Dale on this one. Although I do think this family is waaaay out there - certainly I wouldn't be offering up the body of my sick or dead child for any 'independent reporter'.
The family has absolutely NO obligation to satisfy anyone's desire to see 'the body'.
So we've moved from 'independent reporters' to 'physician reporters' to TMZ or the National Enquirer?
What I see is that lots of people have their own agenda in this situation. Not just the family.
I'm sure this is a total coincidence, but an arson fire was set in the administration offices of Children's Hospital Oakland. The story doesn't say what, if any, records were destroyed. (I would assume that most medical records are online, but don't actually know that.)
I have to agree with Dale on this one. Although I do think this family is waaaay out there - certainly I wouldn't be offering up the body of my sick or dead child for any 'independent reporter'.
The family has absolutely NO obligation to satisfy anyone's desire to see 'the body'.
So we've moved from 'independent reporters' to 'physician reporters' to TMZ or the National Enquirer?
What I see is that lots of people have their own agenda in this situation. Not just the family.
Hi again, Ringo1. I have been thinking about your post since you posted it. I have given both sides a lot of time and detail in determining what was "owed" to the legal, medical, nursing and other healthcare workers vs. humans having strong feelings about this teen.
Because you have posted in this thread off and on, I wanted to be certain I could explain my reasoning of what I believe is right.
I am going to answer your posts in two separate posts.
This one is about the media and an earlier post about not believing tv reporters.
Personally, I'd prefer to have physician reporters witness the "treatment and progress," while on room temp for the ongoing ventilator. However, this family refused to even let certain physicians examine the 13 y.o. Thus the court decision and third Pediatric Neurologist, the Dept. Head at Stanford to do an independent exam. With six of six physicians agreeing this teen was brain dead, the family went back to court.
Let's just say I think the family may feel more comfortable with non-physician media. They appear to have a pattern for manipulating the media. It could be with a TMZ type reporter they would feel more comfortable. I honestly do not know. I wouldn't want a TMZ reporter looking at my family member, I'd invite the Dept. Heads of every Academic Pediatric Neurology
Department/Division in the U. S. and Canada to visit. And I'd schedule them every week so hundreds of Pediatric Neurologists could observe, watch one clinical exam and then ask ME and her treating physicians questions, if this were my teen "improving."
When the family turned to the media and the court system, they were using CA Tax payer dollars in their journey and asking for public reaction to pressure CHO with NO regard for the other PICU patients and their families.. Had they done everything privately with no media and a quiet one time court appearance, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, for now. Court will be different, if they make it that far.
The FAMILY didn't give all the facts at CHO, when they invited the media, used tax payers funds for court hearings etc. and asked anyone who wanted to donate into their lives. They also didn't abide with the agreement from the first Court Appearance.
For those reasons, what PROOF EXISTS that this is the 13 y.o.'s body that left CHO to the Corner? I'm very serious. What proof is there what the mom describes is the body that left the M. E.'s office?
Additionally, brain death was declared in Dec. 2013. There are certain states that define crimes against a deceased person. It would protect the family at some level to have outside witnesses so they aren't charged potentially with fraud and other crimes. Attorneys may advise differently, I don't know.
I have no idea what all laws may have been broken, if any. I do know the way child abuse is investigated some innocent parents have lost custody of their children, for months or years, because they refused to answer questions and created mountains out of molehiills. The quickest way in a healthcare setting to prove innocence is corporate. Answer the questions and allow others to confirm your story.
I, personally, have no desire to see the accurately dated photos of this teen's body. I think a Guardian Ad Litem, The Court and three Pediatric Neurologists are enough to see pictures or the teen's body and confirm through medical records this is the same body.. And that might be an option vs. TV reporters; however, don't be surprised if DNA testing becomes a topic in the fall.
I'll post the second response in the other post.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent reaching my decisions and the reasons.
MSR
Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 04-05-2014 at 12:15 AM..
Ringo1, I wanted to answer the second part here so I could also address Bongo.
Media answers are in part I.
This is part II about those with an agenda. I agree, there are many agendas.
First, Dolan getting this on the Ballot for Nov. gives anyone who lives in California, has relatives living there a major interest. How death is determined in CA, not only makes residents but visitors consider if they would be "alive" in Cali while dead in every other state.
Secondly, for anyone who pays malpractice premiums like I do ( or have theirs paid by an employer), do you think our rates will decrease? NO And that will be true throughout the U.S., not just CA. With higher malpractice premiums a percentage of clinicians wull stop seeing patients. Care will cost more.
Third, for those of us who work in Healthcare with Malpractice Premiums increasing and a decrease in reimbursement from the Affordable Health Care Act, those clinicians who remain in practice will want to practice in states where they can earn a living. Net result, some states with doctor shortages may see many relocate from CA and other states where the cost of living is high. Care may be unaffordable to more in CA than ever before.
Obtaining medical care will be more difficult for all patients in CA and any other state that decides to increase awards in malpractice and not cap the attorney's portion. That's if people can afford the premiums or cash visits.
Fourth, CA hospitals may not be able to offer all the services that they currently do, if this initiative passes. If you think I'm over-stating that, please review how many CA hospitals closed E.R.s with "reform" a few years back.
Fifth, I don't even know how to calculate the costs and additional protocols this creates for Coroners and M.E. offices.
Sixth, Judicial Costs. Will judges have to be at least a mid-level medical practitioner, if not a physician and a lawyer to preside over cases? Most juries have an idea of what DNA testing is. Will judges need to be able to interpret the laws, EEGS, blood flow brain tests and be able to understand the details of "Executive Functioning" from a Frontal Lobe to the differences the Optic Chiasm and Occipital Lobes each contribute for vision and what the brainstem regulates compared to the hypothalamus?
All of those questions and more, if the family sues CHO, which they have said they plan to do, if you don't think Defense Attorneys will use DNA testing to prove whatever body is in court is the same one that left CHO and the M.E.'s office, I'd suggest you potentially haven't been involved in many real trials.
Why would any attorney defending an individual clinician or hospital accept that premise since NO ONE external to the family, the NJ Foundation, Schiavo Foundation, all with their own agendas, has witnessed this body to be the same one that left the M.E.'s office? That is one reason inviting physicians in now who could witness the treatment and "improvement" could help the family with that argument if this goes to court.
In criminal cases usually jailers can positively identify a defendant. Laws about the chain of custody for Forensics are there to identify the evidence and how it was preserved so there could be no mix ups.
And then there is basic morality and humanity that doesn't allow certain "treatments" in the U.S.. Outside witnesses could write and video treatment to ensure those laws are being followed.
For the reasons I've listed in both posts and more, I believe it is a huge mistake for this family to not let outsiders to see this child's body now.
Because I started this thread in mid-Dec., I will remind some of the newer readers and posters I had worked as part of a team in a very similar situation in a different PICU. That family knew Jesus was going to heal their brain dead son.
I supported the efforts of Terri Schiavo's family, as she experienced severe and profound BRAIN DAMAGE but was NOT brain dead. The 13 y.o. is brain dead.
I also believe in miracles. I have both faith and science in my life. I know for the miracles I've observed, many physicians and other clinicians were involved. Yet, I can't think of even one patient's family that contacted the media or went to court to "prove" a miracle or do other things this family has done.
Thanks for both of your posts.
MSR
Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 04-05-2014 at 01:47 AM..
Interesting.....Maybe Some Are Trying To Intimidate or Something....
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb73
I'm sure this is a total coincidence, but an arson fire was set in the administration offices of Children's Hospital Oakland. The story doesn't say what, if any, records were destroyed. (I would assume that most medical records are online, but don't actually know that.)
My own thought is it would be an arsonist that doesn't have a clue how many copies of the McMath case exist in different locations. That's if it's somehow connected to McMath. We don't know that it is.
I'll say the timing is interesting given the Schiavo award last week.
It will be a story to watch as police and fire officials investigate and find those who are guilty.
I have no tolerance for destruction of property.
Please keep us updated if you or others learn more.
Ringo1, I wanted to answer the second part here so I could also address Bongo.
Media answers are in part I.
This is part II about those with an agenda. I agree, there are many agendas.
First, Dolan getting this on the Ballot for Nov. gives anyone who lives in California, has relatives living there a major interest. How death is determined in CA, not only makes residents but visitors consider if they would be "alive" in Cali while dead in every other state.
Secondly, for anyone who pays malpractice premiums like I do ( or have theirs paid by an employer), do you think our rates will decrease? NO And that will be true throughout the U.S., not just CA. With higher malpractice premiums a percentage of clinicians wull stop seeing patients. Care will cost more.
Third, for those of us who work in Healthcare with Malpractice Premiums increasing and a decrease in reimbursement from the Affordable Health Care Act, those clinicians who remain in practice will want to practice in states where they can earn a living. Net result, some states with doctor shortages may see many relocate from CA and other states where the cost of living is high. Care may be unaffordable to more in CA than ever before.
Obtaining medical care will be more difficult for all patients in CA and any other state that decides to increase awards in malpractice and not cap the attorney's portion. That's if people can afford the premiums or cash visits.
Fourth, CA hospitals may not be able to offer all the services that they currently do, if this initiative passes. If you think I'm over-stating that, please review how many CA hospitals closed E.R.s with "reform" a few years back.
Fifth, I don't even know how to calculate the costs and additional protocols this creates for Coroners and M.E. offices.
Sixth, Judicial Costs. Will judges have to be at least a mid-level medical practitioner, if not a physician and a lawyer to preside over cases? Most juries have an idea of what DNA testing is. Will judges need to be able to interpret the laws, EEGS, blood flow brain tests and be able to understand the details of "Executive Functioning" from a Frontal Lobe to the differences the Optic Chiasm and Occipital Lobes each contribute for vision and what the brainstem regulates compared to the hypothalamus?
All of those questions and more, if the family sues CHO, which they have said they plan to do, if you don't think Defense Attorneys will use DNA testing to prove whatever body is in court is the same one that left CHO and the M.E.'s office, I'd suggest you potentially haven't been involved in many real trials.
Why would any attorney defending an individual clinician or hospital accept that premise since NO ONE external to the family, the NJ Foundation, Schiavo Foundation, all with their own agendas, has witnessed this body to be the same one that left the M.E.'s office? That is one reason inviting physicians in now who could witness the treatment and "improvement" could help the family with that argument if this goes to court.
In criminal cases usually jailers can positively identify a defendant. Laws about the chain of custody for Forensics are there to identify the evidence and how it was preserved so there could be no mix ups.
And then there is basic morality and humanity that doesn't allow certain "treatments" in the U.S.. Outside witnesses could write and video treatment to ensure those laws are being followed.
For the reasons I've listed in both posts and more, I believe it is a huge mistake for this family to not let outsiders to see this child's body now.
Because I started this thread in mid-Dec., I will remind some of the newer readers and posters I had worked as part of a team in a very similar situation in a different PICU. That family knew Jesus was going to heal their brain dead son.
I supported the efforts of Terri Schiavo's family, as she experienced severe and profound BRAIN DAMAGE but was NOT brain dead. The 13 y.o. is brain dead.
I also believe in miracles. I have both faith and science in my life. I know for the miracles I've observed, many physicians and other clinicians were involved. Yet, I can't think of even one patient's family that contacted the media or went to court to "prove" a miracle or do other things this family has done.
Thanks for both of your posts.
MSR
This family has absolutely no obligation to display this body for you or anyone else to see. I don't agree with the actions of this family; nor do I agree that they must 'show' anyone the body. When and IF a Judge rules that they must - then they must. Until then, no.
Did you think your malpractice rates were going to go down regardless of what happens with this particular case?
I think folks have become too obsessed with this gal.
I think we all need to practice what we are preaching....and let go.
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Whatever this Family Will Use...
