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oof this forum I tell ya. At least you speak the quiet parts out loud. This ^^^^ is city data for me in a nutshell, when it comes to the upper middle class echo chamber I often speak of.
Let it be known that yours is indeed not a racist complaint. Yours is quintessentially a classist one, full stop.
If you insist, sanctimonious one.
People of means almost universally choose to self-segregate away from the lower classes. This isn’t a new phenomenon or trend, it’s been happening since this country’s inception, and it’s unlikely to ever change.
The fact that I am frank and honest about my disappointment in the demographic/economic changes at Plano West (and more broadly in Collin County), is not classism.
It is in fact a logical and rational unease borne from the well-established and indisputable correlation between increasing numbers of low income families and low income students in communities where they didn’t previously exist, and a multitude of negative outcomes for schools, property values, and neighborhood desirability/prestige over time, among many other issues.
Which isn’t to say any of this really matters on a personal level anymore, considering my parents recently sold their home and moved out of state (as I intend to do).
But even if I won’t be living here anymore, that doesn’t mean that I don’t care. If Collin County schools can somehow maintain their excellence in spite of a high probability that low income students will likely contribute to greater and greater percentages of their student bodies over time, they will be an exception and an outlier to the rule, rather than a normality.
Are you legitimately arguing the contrary — that to have these concerns is somehow unfounded or baseless despite a multitude of evidence — in DFW and beyond — that reliably correlates a critical mass of low income students with diminishing public school reputation and performance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
It's just that classism in America (income bigotry) is hardly debated as an original-sin type source of friction, the way say race tension between white and black skinned people was in the development of the Country. It's also why americans speciously consider themselves to live in a "classless" society where everybody self-reports as middle class for plausible deniability reasons. Certainly the case when comparing themselves to say, pre-Bretton-Woods Britain for instance. Richard Reeves goes a bit into this deflection/delusion on the part of upper middle class Americans in his book DreamHoarders.
At any rate, in the case of Americans, the desire for income-based apartheid (especially due to the overemphasis of housing equity as their financial lifeboat in life, as opposed to mere shelter; life choice which is another causal problem from where I sit) may be passive-aggressive by the use of race tokenism arguments, like the one made earlier in the thread about affluent non-whites existing. The implication thence being that all's well here in income-apartheid Shangri-La, because we got monied brown people hating on poor brown people. Unreal the odiousness of the upper middle class.
Do you speak the way you write? You use so many words, and yet I have not the slightest clue what you are arguing.
People self-segregate. Whether it’s based on income, education, race, political affiliation, interests, class, life station, religion, or a host of other personal factors. Your obsession with smugly admonishing upper middle class/rich people who prefer to live amongst and associate amongst themselves, while reserving censure for the myriad of other means by which people willingly self-sort is flagrantly hypocritical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
To wit, upper class Americans (the PMC/upper middle class, overrepresented in this website, very much included) love to be passive aggressive about classism, by distracting the conversation with universally agreeable utterances against racism. And to the degree it seeks to distract from the conversation by accurately pointing out that income in america isn't exclusively proxied by race (with the exception of the Anglo to African American chasm), they get to skate (in their minds anyways) on the obvious question of class-driven economic inequality in this Country. To say nothing of the hypocritical subsidy of their own affluence of course by policy choices shoehorned onto the Country by their outsized money-based political clout (the hoarding argument Reeves makes in his book).
More word salad. You do realize I’m black, right?
You argue that the “Anglo to African American” income chasm is exclusively proxied by race. It couldn’t possibly be caused by culture, IQ, work ethic, family values, or personal accountability. Nope, to you it all boils down to race and racism. Typical Leftist ideology, which attributes black failure to externalities, rather than placing castigation on the many degenerate qualities of black American culture.
Speaking of racism, I have encountered virtually none, and have spent my entire life rubbing elbows in mostly upper middle class/rich, conservative, and predominately white circles. The rare instances I have experienced racism was from Leftists like you, who were shocked when they realized that I do not share their beliefs, nor do I fit into their preconceived and racist ideals of what my lived experience has been as a black male in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
BL, I care not for distinctions without difference. Classism hiding under "well, there's affluent brown skinned people around so.." is one such distinction without difference. Socioeconomic apartheid is an odious quality present, dare I say endemic, to my socioeconomic class. I despise the prevailing attitude of people in my income bracket for that reason, especially given their cowardly unwillingness to speak the quiet parts out loud, your open screed being the exception.
Why do you care so much about who people “in your socioeconomic class” choose to associate with? It’s none of your business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
Self-sorting behavior may be normalized to you, but it's no less odious and contemptuous of those who also contribute to the establishment of the Country you enjoy. The Upper middle class thinks too highly of themselves and of the degree to which their cohort input supposedly contributes to the usufruct of the system they enjoy. It's a classist delusion; the fact that is classist and not racist, doesn't make it any less of a delusion. Speaking this in this echo chamber is farting in church so I digress.
Sincerely signed, a proud class traitor.
This virtue-signaling, self-righteous diatribe accomplished absolutely nothing. I still have no idea what practical point you are making, other than the fact that you think rich people should willfully choose to live amongst the poor.
With all of the real problems we’re facing as a country (inflation/currency devaluation, unaffordable housing, deep political partisanship) and on the world stage (dollar reserve status being challenged, great power struggles and possible war with Russia/China), it is bizarre that this is the issue you are most concerned with.
Xalistiq,
Dont take this the wrong way, but maybe, just maybe, you personally are not part of the upper class that your parents were part of 20/30 years ago. Because if you were, then you would just skip off to Highland Park/Southlake etc where you can still get away from the "riff raff" as you put it. Though I will say there are still parts of the metroplex where you can still get be part of the elite that you speak off with minimal presence of low income folks, also little or no apartments either. Here are a few spots:
Highland Park
Southlake
Colleyville
Murphy
Parker
Lucas
Sunnyvale
Heath
Flower Mound
Coppell
Westlake
Fairview
Prosper
Of course all the above will cost you a pretty penny. If the budget required is too rich for your blood, then that says that you are just middle class. No crime in that.
People of means almost universally choose to self-segregate away from the lower classes. This isn’t a new phenomenon or trend, it’s been happening since this country’s inception, and it’s unlikely to ever change.
The fact that I am frank and honest about my disappointment in the demographic/economic changes at Plano West (and more broadly in Collin County), is not classism.
It is in fact a logical and rational unease borne from the well-established and indisputable correlation between increasing numbers of low income families and low income students in communities where they didn’t previously exist, and a multitude of negative outcomes for schools, property values, and neighborhood desirability/prestige over time, among many other issues.
Which isn’t to say any of this really matters on a personal level anymore, considering my parents recently sold their home and moved out of state (as I intend to do).
But even if I won’t be living here anymore, that doesn’t mean that I don’t care. If Collin County schools can somehow maintain their excellence in spite of a high probability that low income students will likely contribute to greater and greater percentages of their student bodies over time, they will be an exception and an outlier to the rule, rather than a normality.
Are you legitimately arguing the contrary — that to have these concerns is somehow unfounded or baseless despite a multitude of evidence — in DFW and beyond — that reliably correlates a critical mass of low income students with diminishing public school reputation and performance?
Do you speak the way you write? You use so many words, and yet I have not the slightest clue what you are arguing.
People self-segregate. Whether it’s based on income, education, race, political affiliation, interests, class, life station, religion, or a host of other personal factors. Your obsession with smugly admonishing upper middle class/rich people who prefer to live amongst and associate amongst themselves, while reserving censure for the myriad of other means by which people willingly self-sort is flagrantly hypocritical.
More word salad. You do realize I’m black, right?
You argue that the “Anglo to African American” income chasm is exclusively proxied by race. It couldn’t possibly be caused by culture, IQ, work ethic, family values, or personal accountability. Nope, to you it all boils down to race and racism. Typical Leftist ideology, which attributes black failure to externalities, rather than placing castigation on the many degenerate qualities of black American culture.
Speaking of racism, I have encountered virtually none, and have spent my entire life rubbing elbows in mostly upper middle class/rich, conservative, and predominately white circles. The rare instances I have experienced racism was from Leftists like you, who were shocked when they realized that I do not share their beliefs, nor do I fit into their preconceived and racist ideals of what my lived experience has been as a black male in this country.
Why do you care so much about who people “in your socioeconomic class” choose to associate with? It’s none of your business.
This virtue-signaling, self-righteous diatribe accomplished absolutely nothing. I still have no idea what practical point you are making, other than the fact that you think rich people should willfully choose to live amongst the poor.
With all of the real problems we’re facing as a country (inflation/currency devaluation, unaffordable housing, deep political partisanship) and on the world stage (dollar reserve status being challenged, great power struggles and possible war with Russia/China), it is bizarre that this is the issue you are most concerned with.
Where I think you go truly off the rails is your position that local government should use force of law (zoning etc.) to unfairly restrict private property rights and disallow certain residential land uses (and in previous times, actual residents of certain backgrounds) that would otherwise answer a market need within a given area because it breaks down the ability of residents to perpetuate their self-segregation, and especially self-segregation their children in schools. There is NO JUSTIFICATION, NONE, for such actions, and the fact that communities (mainly suburbs) all over the U.S. do it is a major indictment of this nation that needs to end yesterday and should never have been allowed to begin with. It is so contrary to the nation's libertarian professed ideals.
Self-segregation should be entirely the burden of the resident home buyer within the constitutionally limited tools of the free market (deed restrictions and private amenities). You cannot justify using force of law to further that cause, regardless of what local residents claim to have in their "best interest."
Xalistiq,
Dont take this the wrong way, but maybe, just maybe, you personally are not part of the upper class that your parents were part of 20/30 years ago. Because if you were, then you would just skip off to Highland Park/Southlake etc where you can still get away from the "riff raff" as you put it. Though I will say there are still parts of the metroplex where you can still get be part of the elite that you speak off with minimal presence of low income folks, also little or no apartments either. Here are a few spots:
Highland Park
Southlake
Colleyville
Murphy
Parker
Lucas
Sunnyvale
Heath
Flower Mound
Coppell
Westlake
Fairview
Prosper
Of course all the above will cost you a pretty penny. If the budget required is too rich for your blood, then that says that you are just middle class. No crime in that.
Maybe you’re right.
Certainty the barrier to entry is much higher today than it was twenty to thirty years ago, when someone with the inflation-adjusted equivalent of my income could have easily bought in University Park or Southlake.
I was ready to buy in 2021 and specifically moved back to Dallas for that purpose, only to find that the housing market was a FOMO-driven mess. Not to mention, unlike many others in my age group, I have received no family inheritance or financial support.
The reality is that it is much harder for Millennials to get ahead financially than it was for Boomers and Gen X. As I’ve already stated, I’ll be leaving Dallas because buying a house here makes no financial sense anymore.
Certainty the barrier to entry is much higher today than it was twenty to thirty years ago, when someone with the inflation-adjusted equivalent of my income could have easily bought in University Park or Southlake.
I was ready to buy in 2021 and specifically moved back to Dallas for that purpose, only to find that the housing market was a FOMO-driven mess. Not to mention, unlike many others in my age group, I have received no family inheritance or financial support.
The reality is that it is much harder for Millennials to get ahead financially than it was for Boomers and Gen X. As I’ve already stated, I’ll be leaving Dallas because buying a house here makes no financial sense anymore.
Agree completely. To heck with what all the East/West coasters say, DFW is no longer affordable for the regular every day guy/gal anymore, specifically those who dont have the equity from the coasts or gifts from rich parents.
The only problem is where would you go? Affordable housing can be found in say the midwest outside of Chicago, and parts of the south far away from big cities like rural Georgia/Missisippi/Alabama but what you gain in affordability you then lose in big city amenities and it might as well be Siberia for a single person. So it's a case of tradeoffs.
Agree completely. To heck with what all the East/West coasters say, DFW is no longer affordable for the regular every day guy/gal anymore, specifically those who dont have the equity from the coasts or gifts from rich parents.
The only problem is where would you go? Affordable housing can be found in say the midwest outside of Chicago, and parts of the south far away from big cities like rural Georgia/Missisippi/Alabama but what you gain in affordability you then lose in big city amenities and it might as well be Siberia for a single person. So it's a case of tradeoffs.
There's only a few good-sized metros (not as big as DFW of course) with some level of amenities and a decent economy that maintain traditional levels of affordability. Indy, Columbus, Des Moines probably top the list. Maybe Pittsburgh and KCMO, Omaha? Louisville? Am I sleeping on Cincy? MPLS/StP has a decent economy but isn't quite as affordable as those other Midwest places. My images of MKE and CLE are just stagnation and poverty, but maybe that's not correct?
Poor St. Louis isn't dying, but it's not growing...and it is CHEAP. Not sure what's going on with Memphis or ABQ either. All 3 places have terrible images in the popular imagination though.
At this point, Houston and SA are both somewhat more affordable than DFW and Austin; interesting that such a gap has appeared, even if it's not a huge one.
Also, OKC, the most proximate more affordable sizable metro to DFW, though admittedly a little weak on amenities.
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