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We are on our 4th Aussie (she's a 2 year old female) and she will be our last. She is a handful. Incredibly smart, high on the energy needs and very destructive when not getting the exercise she needs. She's also a bit on the anxious side which can sometimes manifest as aggressive behavior to other dogs and strangers. We've owned other Aussies that were more manageable, but by no means perfect themselves.
So many of the traits that attracted my husband when he got his first one in 1991- the intelligence, independence, need to constantly work etc, just no longer fit our lifestyle with 2 young kids. We certainly would never introduce another dog into the family. Our next dog will be a breed that is more laid back and sedentary.
Our girl is calming down....a little bit. And, I really think my husband kind of likes her troublemaker attitude and it will be hard for him to get another breed after owning one or two Aussies at the same time continuously for almost 25 years.
This all sounds so typical of higher drive Aussies. That aggression manifest is reactivity and can be common in Aussies.
There is no substitute for energy release as you prolly know. Have you ever tried a flirt pole? It can really help defuse the energy issue when you don't have much time or space and can also be a great way to build on self control. I include proofing stays when using my flirt pole...yes, I love to proof behaviors. I also ask my dog to weave 12 agility poles at speed while his bowl of beyond yummy raw food is in perfect position to easily call him outta the poles. I am naughty.
How about any of the interactive dog toys? They are great for active, smart dogs. This is a 2008 article so there are more toys on the market now. Interactive Dog Toys - Whole Dog Journal Article
Check into the Icelandic Sheepdog. I know quite a few Aussie peeps who've transitioned to Icies for the reasons you mention. Our next puppy is gonna be an Icie...my goal is pet therapy with terminal kids and an Aussie doesn't fit that bill...so I've done tons of research and am working with three excellent breeders (one on the west coast, one on the east coast and one in the midwest). They are typically fabulous with kids and I would never describe Aussies that way although some can be. I am a nearly incurable Aussie addict so that may help describe how attractive the ISD can be to an Aussie person. Two good breed temperament description links for you:
Jumpindogs - this is our third Aussie. My first Aussie was a male that lived to be 13. He was a wonderful dog that would hug you if he liked you He minded well and got along well with any dog he came across. He had a perfect temperament.
Roger is unlike any dog I have ever met. I vacuumed yesterday and he attacked the vacuum cleaner, biting onto it so that when I moved it he hung on. Any dog that I have ever owned has not liked the vacuum cleaner. Dixie (my girl Aussie) isn't very scared but she walks away from it to another room. My golden is terrified of it.
He is now at the vet's office in recovery and we pick up up in two hours. Vet said it takes about 6 weeks for the testosterone to get out of his body. I wish she hadn't said this because my husband will now use that as an excuse. She said there is a slight chance this will make him less aggressive but she said not to expect the two dogs to get along any better than they do now. She said she has seen it happen but it is very rare. Time will tell
Your first Aussie sounds like a wonderful guy.
There are two basic divergent groups of Aussies...conformation lines and working lines...along with a lot of mixing of the two since many conformation breeders out cross to working lines to try and maintain herding instinct. An Aussie from working lines is often not suitable for non-ranch/farm families and can have a hard temperament along with a very high energy level that if not given an outlet can result in behavior problems...even apparent aggression in a dog merely predisposed to feeling a little snarky. A walk is not even close to an energy outlet for these dogs. A walk is like sleeping. Reactivity is another variable that can exacerbate the problems.
Even if your dog is not out of working lines he may have working lines behind him and may have inherited some or many of the genes which dictate that behavior.
My rescue Aussie Karma is...I say *is* because we have come a really long way together but she must always be managed...a reactive dog. She would also bite the vacuum cleaner if I let her. I don't. She is crated in the car while I vacuum. I can get her to accept the vacuum calmly but it takes time and when I am cleaning I don't have time. So I manage her behavior instead of training it. Gotta pick your battles.
Working on her reactivity around other dogs was extremely time consuming (many, many months) and required so much patience but was very rewarding for me and worth it. She went from a lunging, screaming, crazed beast who nearly pulled me off my feet to being able to run agility off leash, at speed and 100% focused on my handling while another dog ran sequences adjacent to her in our two concurrent class setup with no barrier. That is beyond amazing.
That said, I would not recommend a dog requiring that degree of training and management for a family. Not even for a single person or couple unless they already knew a lot about dog training and behavior modification using positive techniques and were already devoted to the dog. It is a very long, very hard, emotional road and one I do not care to travel again.
It sounds like your Roger might be that dog. If he is, neutering will not change him.
Are you able to show your hubby the responses you've gotten on this thread? Sometimes people can easily dismiss family comments yet will listen more carefully when others offer the same advice/opinions.
Yes I have printed everything out. He is still adamant that this will all work out. Roger is very high strung. We have a very large fenced in back yard that he and my other aussie Dixie run in, along with me playing with them, throwing balls, etc. This gives him a lot of exercise, plus we have the farm that he has free rein in.
Even with all of this exercise he is still a bully (as I call him). I have been working with him, and he is getting a tiny bit better. Eating is the main area right now. Before, he would not let Dixie eat at all. He would run to her bowl every time she started to eat. Now, he calmly eats while she eats, and does not bother her at all. That is a baby step lol.
As you can see have not mentioned my golden Bridget. That is because she is not in the picture during eating and back yard play. All of that with her has to be done separately. This not only takes up A LOT of my time, but is not fair for her. Goldens are wonderful family dogs and DO NOT like to be separated from their family.
Dixie is the sweetest Ausie you can meet. She is loving and kind. She hates Roger, which tells a lot. One week down and 5 to go until the vet says the testosterone is out of his body.
Want to know something funny? Roger has picked me of all people to be his favorite person in this house. lol
Yes I have printed everything out. He is still adamant that this will all work out. Roger is very high strung. We have a very large fenced in back yard that he and my other aussie Dixie run in, along with me playing with them, throwing balls, etc. This gives him a lot of exercise, plus we have the farm that he has free rein in.
Even with all of this exercise he is still a bully (as I call him). I have been working with him, and he is getting a tiny bit better. Eating is the main area right now. Before, he would not let Dixie eat at all. He would run to her bowl every time she started to eat. Now, he calmly eats while she eats, and does not bother her at all. That is a baby step lol.
As you can see have not mentioned my golden Bridget. That is because she is not in the picture during eating and back yard play. All of that with her has to be done separately. This not only takes up A LOT of my time, but is not fair for her. Goldens are wonderful family dogs and DO NOT like to be separated from their family.
Dixie is the sweetest Ausie you can meet. She is loving and kind. She hates Roger, which tells a lot. One week down and 5 to go until the vet says the testosterone is out of his body.
Want to know something funny? Roger has picked me of all people to be his favorite person in this house. lol
Good work on the eating! That's not a baby step but a big step. :-) It's best to work with Roger on his issues but if you ever need a break from working that particular issue and want to give your Golden some freedom...which she more than deserves...just crate Roger while he eats.
Ask your hubby if he thinks testosterone is the only reason some people (dogs) are bullies. Ask him why all guys (dogs) with normal levels of testosterone are not bullies. Ask him if he'd like to live with a bully. In your house. Every day. Giving off his disturbing bully vibes for all meals, all playtime, all family time, all relaxing time. And if he'd like to be locked in his room so that the bully could have free rein of the house and yard. Ask him to really think about all that and not just give immediate answers. Ask him in a nice way, of course. But ask him to think about all that and to give you his thoughtfully considered input on each question.
There are some people we just don't like. That's normal. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with us. We choose to avoid such people in order to reduce stress in our lives. There are some dogs that other dogs just don't like. That's normal. Dogs choose to avoid such dogs. Forcing them to live with such dogs is stressful for all concerned...the dogs (both the bullied dogs and the bully dog), the humans and any other creatures, human or otherwise, that come into contact with the situation.
Many of us focus on the affects on the bullied dogs and don't realize that the bully dog is feeling very stressed when he exhibits such behavior and that he would be much happier and less stressed in a different home as an only dog. Daily stress is very unhealthy.
Even if Roger's bully behavior reduces with neutering, you can never leave him unattended with your other dogs. Never! Because testosterone is not the only component of his behavior. The strongest influences of behavior are genetics and environment. You can work on the environmental aspect and possibly overcome what he's already learned in his original home although a complete change is doubtful since we animals really hang onto what we learn first...in the dog training world we call that reverting to foundation when under stress. But you cannot change his genetics. Thus he will likely always be a time bomb. Never leaving Roger unattended with your other dogs will be extremely challenging as a life long task...not that it is that hard to do but there will be days when someone slips up. Ask your hubby how he will feel if the day comes when, after a period of apparent good behavior, Roger seriously injures or kills one of your other dogs. That same scenario has happened many times with such dogs...too many times for your hubby to ignore unless he is extremely oblivious to logic when it comes to Roger. If that's the case I am so sorry for you.
Wondering...might your hubby be so hesitant to give the dog back to whoever gifted him because returning Roger could make that relationship uncomfortable? That might be another thought-provoking question to ask him. And granted a challenge for your hubby. But also an opportunity to do the right thing. Surely your hubby would not want to risk the safety of your other dogs, and promote your continued discomfort, merely to avoid that.
Last edited by Jumpindogs; 08-09-2015 at 09:28 AM..
Even if Roger's bully behavior reduces with neutering, you can never leave him unattended with your other dogs. Never! Because testosterone is not the only component of his behavior. The strongest influences of behavior are genetics and environment.
^^^^ This.
I too believe there is a strong genetic component. My 9 year old GSD male who has been neutered for years still does not get along with other dogs (except for my female GSD). When he was a little puppy (maybe 7 weeks old) an adult GSD walked up to the pen he and his litter mates were in. He was the only dog out of the litter to bark at the big dog. That behavior has remained constant throughout his life. The other pups in the pen ignored the dog.
I don't know why your husband thinks it will fix itself. All people don't like all other people. If you don't like a person you probably won't change your mind about them. It's the same with dogs. I have friends that, for over 10 years, have had to be very careful about what dog was in what part of the back yard and house. If they ever made a mistake or a dog somehow escaped from it's "assigned" location, there was a fight. A decade plus of living together did not make these dogs like, or even tolerate, each other.
Is there some other reason he doesn't want to return the dog? It seems like there must be as his response doesn't make any sense otherwise.
Are you doing most of the work to fix this or is he helping at all with the dogs? Hopefully he is because he's the one insisting it will be fine.
Our 10 lb yorkie and 50 pound sheltie/border collie mix were absolute best buds, and were around the same age. Last year we lost our collie due to cancer, and we tried to adopt another dog around the same weight months later. Our yorkie was 6 at the time and the new dog was about a year. She was of another terrier mix and the yorkie wanted nothing to do with her and would get violent. We eventually had to return the new dog because of major health issues not disclosed to us, but we would have had to have worked with a good trainer if we kept her.
I feel it was the age difference...our collie also knew his weight, and knew how to act around our yorkie because of the weight difference. The new pip didn't seem to realize or care that she was much larger.
Still looking for a rescue. The previous owners will not take him back. I am starting to go crazy. Here is my day:
Dogs all wake up. Roger and my aussie (Dixie) in my bedroom. I have to hurry up and take Bridget out to let her do her business (have to put her on a chain.)
While Bridget is on her chain, I take Dixie and Roger out to the backyard to let them run. While they are in the backyard, I unhook Bridget from her chain, bring her in , let her eat. I take her back out and walk her to let her do her business. When she is finished, I bring her in, let her get some water, and then put her in the bedroom.
I get the aussies from the backyard and bring them in to eat. When finished I take them back to the backyard (I am unable to walk both of them at the same time) and let them run and play and do their business.
I bring the Aussiesm in and put Roger in the bathroom. Get Bridget out of the bedroom and let her run in the backyard. Bring Bridget in and put her in the bedroom and let Roger out of the bathroom.
By now Bridget is starting to whine and in about 30 minutes she will start banging on the door.
2 1/2 hours later I take the two aussies out and put them in the back yard. While they are in the backyard I take Bridget out and we go for our walk/run. She is 10 and is not able to run like she use to. Bridget goes back on the chain.
I then bring in the two aussies from the backyard and put Roger in the bedroom. Bring Bridget back in.
The only exercise they are getting is running in the backyard and Bridget taking walks with me. Granted, my "backyard" is around 2 acres so they have a lot of space to run in.
Within this mess I have to clean up the BMs.
I cannot handle this schedule for too long. He is only at one week so 5 weeks to go until all of his testosterone is out of his body.
We tried to get them together the other day and they did great. Bridget just laid there and watched Roger and Dixie play. Roger went up to her a couple of times and Bridget just laid there. But, when Roger went up to her going fast in playing mode, Bridget went off and it was the viscous fight again. I am not sure if Bridget lasting about 30 minutes without fighting is a good sign??? I don't think so but maybe it is.
I have help starting at the 2nd time we all go out because my husband does not leave for work until 12:00 (and there times where he will leave to go fishing, etc.) After he leaves for work I am on my own until bed time. I have an 18 year old daughter but she is not home much. She starts college in three weeks anyway.
I hope this does not sound confusing. I get confused during the day myself. I cannot do this for long and I wish my husband had never gotten this dog. I am not mean to him. I want you all to know that. I love animals. I give Roger all the love and affection I do my other animals.
If you want to try getting them together again, here are a couple of thoughts:
Let them get together as you did above, but then separate them, and take them each to their separate areas BEFORE there are any issues, while they are still all getting along. Do NOT remove Bridget first- you can leash her up, but remove Roger first. This serves multiple purposes- helps build a history of positive interaction and also allows Bridget to feel that SHE isn't being slighted by being removed first- and yes, that does make a difference.
Second, have you tried walking them all together? You with Bridget and your young aussie, and your husband walking the other aussie Roger. Walk on separate sides of the street, with humans between the dogs for a few days. if that works and goes well, no snarky looks or body freezes, then have your husband and you change off with one of you taking the lead first and then the other taking the lead, not walking side by side, but one in front of the other with about 8-10 feet between you, after a few days gradually close up the space as long as there isn't any problematic behavior. This means you need to watch your dogs and separate the distance at any hard stares or body freezes.
In the meantime keep them separated except for the very brief encounters in the yard where you are ending on a good note as described above.
I still firmly believe that Roger needs to be removed from the household, and it is a shame the former owner won't take him, but Bridget needs you to be her advocate and look out for her best interests.
As a side note - Roger and Dixie absolutely love each other They play and then lay down together when they finish to rest. I still put Roger up when we go somewhere but it is nice to see that they at least get along well with each other.
No, I don't think them lasting 30 minutes without fighting is a good sign. They might be able to go days without fighting and then have a horrific fight. I've seen it happen.
Bridget does still need you to be her advocate. You seem to be the only one concerned about Bridget who has been loving and faithful friend and companion to your family all her life. Now that she's in her twilight years, she needs you to protect her. She should be a part of the family instead of having to be isolated.
I know you're doing the best you can, it's too bad that your husband won't agree to rehome Roger. It's almost like he's done with Bridget because she's old and has moved on to the younger dog.
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Two good breed temperament description links for you:
