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Original question - Thirteen years of education - - worthless ?
That depends on what the degree is in AND GPA.
I've been finding out that if you don't have a GPA of 3.0 or higher, you can forget applying for jobs - even within your own organization. It doesn't seem to matter that your school graded on a higher scale than another - all they care to see is the number. Mine was a 2.9_ Had I known this, would I have studied even harder? Would I have pressed the Administrative Division to reconsider based on various factors - ie, Dean's List, et cetera ... ? One instructor did not believe that a student even deserved an A, as that would mean "perfectionism" and there is only ONE that is perfect, certainly not a mortal. So, moral of the story boys and girls: Make sure you get REALLY good grades, 3.0 or higher.
That is good advice. After my recent experience in college, I'd be suspect of anyone who couldn't make the grade though I would allow for things like working while going to school. During my first trip through grad school, there were two distinct curves in my classes. One for the full time students and one for those of us working during the day and going to school at night. More than one professor noted that they used an extended A range because of this. It was just a function of how much time you had to study and having access to things like old tests which you're most likely to have if you're a full time student. I always said if I were to become a professor I'd put my old tests in the library for all to use.
You, definitely, want to either make the grade or have a great excuse for why you didn't....Well, I was working two jobs to support my ailing grandmother and pay for her surgery....
OTOH, I've seen first hand that lower grades don't mean lower ability. My lab partner during my undergrad days was a guy who could barely get a C on a test but he could MAKE the ancient equipment we had in the lab work. He had a knack for taking a pile of pieces and making something functional. Needless to say, he built, I wrote our lab reports. He ended up doing very well in spite of graduating with a 2.5 GPA. Of course this was 20 some years ago. I think school was harder then.
There used to be a sign in my deans office that said....
Be nice to your A students...
....Someday they will return as a professor....
Be nice to yoru B students...
...someday they will design something for you
Be nice to your C students...
...Someday, they'll build it.
I have. You don't need a degree to fix a car. You need to know your way around under the hood. My mechanic isn't programming the computer in my car all by himself. At worst, he downloads a program using a procedure that is spelled out for him.
He needs to be smart enough to figure out what has gone wrong but they have computer diagnostics for that and experience is a great teacher when it comes to learning what has gone wrong and the best way to fix it. Anymore, that's just replace a part though so mechanics, today, really don't need to be as good as mechanics were years ago when they could fix things instead of just intall new using a procedure written out for them.
I spent 18 years in automotive. I've written some of those repair procedures. What a mechanic needs is to apprentice. Learn his way around the shop. Learn the tools of the trade. Calculus will not help him fix my car.
Cars may look complicated but they're still just made up of pieces that are put together. You just need a blueprint, assembly instructions and an idea of what needs fixing. Now THERE's the challenge but a degree won't help. My car is in the shop right now and, so far, they're fixing 4 things I didn't even bring it in for that the computer says need fixing. There are just too many things that can go wrong on today's cars but the solution is, usually, trial and error and a college degree won't help there. Where a college degree helps is in designing a repairable product but, alas, that's not exactly what the auto companies and stylists want. Repair is an afterthought.
I once worked on designing a part that took 8 hours to disassemble for repair because the stylists insisted on no visible fasteners. When we were done, and delivered what they wanted, they looked confused and said "we can't see the fasteners to take this off for repair"....well DUHHHHH!!! They should shoot the stylists about halfway through a program and let the engineers design something that works and can be repaired. Ah....in my dream world....At least the dealership is making money on repairs in this recession...
Sorry, sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across in print well.
We agree. I wish they'd stop pushing degrees for everyone. I feel badly for people who just don't do well in school. Intelligence that leads to academic success isn't the only type of intelligence out there.
My dad quit school in 6th grade but he could look at anything mechanical and see a better way to build it. He was working on his perpetual motion machine up until he died. I suppose college might have convinced him that it would never work but it would have killed a creative spirit in the process.
My brother is the same way. He's unemployed and the state is paying to eduate him. He's just not an intellectual but he's smart. Just not school smart or book smart. I'm book smart but I lack practical smarts. Which is why my car is in the shop and not being repaired in my driveway. From what I undertand, most of the issue is things that just need to be taken apart and cleaned. But they'd probably never run again if I tried it,
How often do you hear it said that with just a high-school diploma one cannot expect to get a decent paying job? Doesn't it seem odd that after spending 13 years in school it is still not sufficient education? If that be the case, what the heck has been going on in the classrooms all that time?
I have nothing against getting a college degree....however, why aren't the school systems using those 13 yrs (from kindergarten - 12th grade) to teach our children enough so that they could get a good job without having to spend another 4+ years (and mega bucks) to get more education?
I don't expect colleges to close their doors; but it sure seems ironic that a high school graduate is viewed as not knowing enough to earn a good paycheck.
Let's put those 13 yrs to better use!
On another note, I once had a supervisor that refused to allow any of us in his department to be promoted if we didn't have a college degree (in any major). His reason was that if he had to spend money for a college degree, then we should have to as well. As soon as he left the company and we were blessed with a sensible supervisor, promotions were awarded to anyone who earned it (college degree or not).
I agree wholeheartedly with you! For me, getting a degree and being forced to spend money classes that either A: I could have taught or B: did not need would have just wasted my time and money to get that complete degree. Since we run our own business, it was pointless. We already had skills the skills that they taught in school, and in some areas, have been better than the professors (being invited to teach at the college for pay by a professor in that area). College should be used a tool, taking the classes that correspond directly with what you do, skipping the ones with the skills you already have, or testing out of them. When most my peers were in college learning how to build websites, I taught myself HTML and built our website, making money right away instead of spending it on someone to teach me.
Sorry, sarcasm sometimes doesn't come across in print well.
We agree. I wish they'd stop pushing degrees for everyone. I feel badly for people who just don't do well in school. Intelligence that leads to academic success isn't the only type of intelligence out there.
My dad quit school in 6th grade but he could look at anything mechanical and see a better way to build it. He was working on his perpetual motion machine up until he died. I suppose college might have convinced him that it would never work but it would have killed a creative spirit in the process.
My brother is the same way. He's unemployed and the state is paying to eduate him. He's just not an intellectual but he's smart. Just not school smart or book smart. I'm book smart but I lack practical smarts. Which is why my car is in the shop and not being repaired in my driveway. From what I undertand, most of the issue is things that just need to be taken apart and cleaned. But they'd probably never run again if I tried it,
Oh, how I can relate. The picture on my profile is of two boats - both completely hand-built over the course of 30 years using 3/4 inch steel recycled from an old gasworks plant. The original "blueprints" for the larger houseboat were drawn by my father (who also built them by himself - with only the exception of the occasional help of my mother, my siblings and myself) while he was on a job on the coast of Maine.
He used not fancy plotting machines or paper - I kid you not - they were originally sketched on the only paper he had on his tug boat at the time - a roll of toilet paper. My father spent the greater part of his elementary education (1940s) with the janitor at the Catholic school that he attended (mainly because of the fact he had a sizable chip on his shoulder - primarily due I feel to his struggles with "book work"). Those were the days when you were beaten into submission. He did manage to graduate from high school (albeit 2 years after he should have) as he valued education in general and I believe, to prove to himself that he could do it.
He was by no means stupid, he was simply stubborn - very stubborn - and had no time for delving into the details on paper. He was a very "hands on" type of learner, and took every opportunity to learn something from "old-timers" with whom he became aquainted.
Those years fostered in him a contempt to prove that he could do anything that was so great, he became renowned in the area for doing dangerous jobs that no one else would do - and he did them exceptionally well. In fact, most people thought he was just plain nuts. He was capable of reading anything and his arithmetic was fabulous, but by today's standards, he'd have probably been not as successful in terms of passing a test. He was for all intents and purposes an engineer - without a degree. While nearing his deathbed, he was picked up and brought to a jobsite to consult on a turbine installation job that no one knew what the heck to do with. He told them what they needed to do, and he passed away shortly thereafter. I was told by the man who hired him that he didn't know what he was going to do if he needed that kind of advice again.
IMHO, there are literally thousands of kids who fit this type of "profile" and I feel that we are so missing out on some incredible talent simply because they can't fill in the correct "bubble." Sighhh...I'll exit my soapbox now.
How often do you hear it said that with just a high-school diploma one cannot expect to get a decent paying job? Doesn't it seem odd that after spending 13 years in school it is still not sufficient education? If that be the case, what the heck has been going on in the classrooms all that time?
I have nothing against getting a college degree....however, why aren't the school systems using those 13 yrs (from kindergarten - 12th grade) to teach our children enough so that they could get a good job without having to spend another 4+ years (and mega bucks) to get more education?
I don't expect colleges to close their doors; but it sure seems ironic that a high school graduate is viewed as not knowing enough to earn a good paycheck.
Let's put those 13 yrs to better use!
On another note, I once had a supervisor that refused to allow any of us in his department to be promoted if we didn't have a college degree (in any major). His reason was that if he had to spend money for a college degree, then we should have to as well. As soon as he left the company and we were blessed with a sensible supervisor, promotions were awarded to anyone who earned it (college degree or not).
Great topic. I think school is a gigantic waste of time. They're basically failure institutions. 13 years?!? And look at the numbers that don't graduate.
I'd argue in the boomer generation (those that went to school in the 50's and 60's), life was so cheap and easy, schooling didn't really matter the way it does now. You could waste those 13 years, but still most people could graduate, get a job, buy a home, raise a family.
It's tragic so many kids are locked up in school now, and they aren't using their time productively or getting any specialization. And even if the smartest ones work the hardest, they won't have a fraction of the life even an average boomer had. They get a horrendous deal from k-12, then its compounded with bloated college costs, aggressive marketing/lending on campuses (credit cards).
13 years...9 months out of the year...5 days a week, 7-10 hours a day (say with homework). Say 8 hours a day conservatively. 40 hours a week. 36 weeks out of the year. Something like 1,440 hours a year.
Times 13...that's 18,720 hours of school. It doesn't take that long to master english or math...you wonder what they are doing in class all day.
I heard a saying that the first 2 years of high school are about learning and the last 2 years of high school are about getting credits. I find that to be true to an extent.
Great topic. I think school is a gigantic waste of time. They're basically failure institutions. 13 years?!? And look at the numbers that don't graduate.
I'd argue in the boomer generation (those that went to school in the 50's and 60's), life was so cheap and easy, schooling didn't really matter the way it does now. You could waste those 13 years, but still most people could graduate, get a job, buy a home, raise a family.
It's tragic so many kids are locked up in school now, and they aren't using their time productively or getting any specialization. And even if the smartest ones work the hardest, they won't have a fraction of the life even an average boomer had. They get a horrendous deal from k-12, then its compounded with bloated college costs, aggressive marketing/lending on campuses (credit cards).
13 years...9 months out of the year...5 days a week, 7-10 hours a day (say with homework). Say 8 hours a day conservatively. 40 hours a week. 36 weeks out of the year. Something like 1,440 hours a year.
Times 13...that's 18,720 hours of school. It doesn't take that long to master english or math...you wonder what they are doing in class all day.
Actually, it does take that long to master english, math, science, art, gym, music, history, social science, etc, etc, etc... and don't count on homework. I WISH I could count on kids doing one hour a week, let alone one a day. You also need to take things like lunch and recess and passing time away from those hours taught.
With all we have to teach we need a longer school year. I teach high school, there are 7 periods in a day and 7 hours in a day. Take off 25 minutes for lunch and 7, 5 minuts passing times and you're down to 6 hours. Now take off sick days, testing days, pep assemblies, etc, etc, etc, (I swear sometimes kids are out of my class more than they're in).
Now look at other countries that teach well. You'll find they all have one thing in common. More than 200 school days per year (they also do homework). If they have 25 more days per year, that's 325 days extra in a 13 year education which is just shy of TWO of our YEARS. We need MORE time to teach.
I'd love to see schools adopt a year round schecule like work places do. The 9 month year was set because kids were needed at home on the farm in the summer. We've moved off of the farm. If we're going to compete, we need to get with the program. Lenghten the school year and get our kids doing homework.
All too often, parents fight homework because kids are over scheduled. With everything they have to do, they don't have time. Maybe we should lengthen the school day while we're at it and put in a homework hour.
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that the computer says need fixing. There are just too many things that can go wrong on today's cars but the solution is, usually, trial and error and a college degree won't help there. Where a college degree helps is in designing a repairable product but, alas, that's not exactly what the auto companies and stylists want. Repair is an afterthought.
My father spent the greater part of his elementary education (1940s) with the janitor at the Catholic school that he attended (mainly because of the fact he had a sizable chip on his shoulder - primarily due I feel to his struggles with "book work"). Those were the days when you were beaten into submission. He did manage to graduate from high school (albeit 2 years after he should have) as he valued education in general and I believe, to prove to himself that he could do it. 
I was told by the man who hired him that he didn't know what he was going to do if he needed that kind of advice again. 
