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American students are middle of the road, if that in global standings.
Lets take a look at countries that do well: Finland is made up of mostly Finns. Denmark made up mostly of Danes. Germany made up of...yeah Germans. The USA is doing "even worse" than Slovenia and Slovakia, but when you think about it they're not doing bad at all and the reason for that is because they are just as intelligent as their Western Euro counterparts.
Lets be honest with ourselves. How much would scores in the US improve if we removed Detroit from the equation? What would happen if we didn't factor Baltimore in? Or Atlanta or Birmingham? Would the overall average not improve once we remove the dregs who simply don't want to learn anyway?
Comparing a city like Memphis, TN to Munich isn't exactly fair, whereas comparing Fargo to Frankfurt seems pretty reasonable. Lets be honest with ourselves here, even if that truth is "uncomfortable" for some.
Quote:
So a tougher curriculum was invented.
I don't think pandering to the lowest common denominator is the definition of "tougher."
Ivorytickler's post hit the bullseye!
We need to stop catering to the dummies and devote resources to those who choose to succeed. There is zero sense in wasting disproportionate amounts of time, money, and teachers' energy trying to boost the dregs from horrible all the way up to terrible.
Lets take a look at countries that do well: Finland is made up of mostly Finns. Denmark made up mostly of Danes. Germany made up of...yeah Germans. The USA is doing "even worse" than Slovenia and Slovakia, but when you think about it they're not doing bad at all and the reason for that is because they are just as intelligent as their Western Euro counterparts.
Lets be honest with ourselves. How much would scores in the US improve if we removed Detroit from the equation? What would happen if we didn't factor Baltimore in? Or Atlanta or Birmingham? Would the overall average not improve once we remove the dregs who simply don't want to learn anyway?
Comparing a city like Memphis, TN to Munich isn't exactly fair, whereas comparing Fargo to Frankfurt seems pretty reasonable. Lets be honest with ourselves here, even if that truth is "uncomfortable" for some.
I don't think pandering to the lowest common denominator is the definition of "tougher."
Ivorytickler's post hit the bullseye!
We need to stop catering to the dummies and devote resources to those who choose to succeed. There is zero sense in wasting disproportionate amounts of time, money, and teachers' energy trying to boost the dregs from horrible all the way up to terrible.
I don't disagree with you. Personally I think we should go back to tracked education for reading and math. Those at the low end get 2 teachers in the class to reduce the ratio. They get a double session for both subjects which gives them additional time to learn.
01-04-2015, 08:19 PM
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n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan
That messes them up when they get into the bigger numbers and also subtraction, especially when you have to borrow from the next column.
Because they never really memorized 8+6 they now have several hoops to jump to get to 14.
Now they "borrowed" from the other ones place. They then get confused when you borrow from the tens place to do subtraction so when they borrow they add to the number but not as a borrowed 10.
And then they try to do the same with fractions....1/8 + 1/6 becomes 1/7 + 1/7 and they think it's ok because they "just borrowed".
And then when they get to Algebra and tack on some variable, exponents and logs to that number and they are totally lost without calculators.
Your foundation math is addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Those that just memorize them and skip the extra steps fare much better in the later grades when math becomes more difficult.
I do Math tutoring (math remediation for those failing) from grades 3-8. The same pattern emerges for these kids..they do not know their foundational math and cannot do any of the higher level math.
Except, of course, that CC doesn't do away with the traditional way students are taught to do arithmetic.
As for your fractions example, they already do things like that without CC, because they never actually learned how to apply algorithms correctly.
There may be problems with CC, but it's rather annoying when people look at one or two problems, fail to understand the point, don't look at the standard, and then conclude that it's terrible.
American students are middle of the road, if that in global standings.
So a tougher curriculum was invented.
BUT..we had NCLB which supposedly called for tougher standards already and not one single school in the US would have made the NCLB mandate of 100% pass their state tests in 2014.
Schools jumped on the CC bandwagon because NCLB was going to destroy their kingdoms in 2014.
Don't forget..if they didn't move over to CC then they had to go with the NCLB mandate of 100% passing.
Well, it is a little crazy to believe that any school can have 100% passing in anything. There will always be a few kids who simply cannot pass these tests. My grandson won't pass them - he has a learning disability and while he can do certain things, he can't read and comprehend properly despite the fact that he has been word-call reading since he was two years old.
American students are middle of the road, if that in global standings.
So a tougher curriculum was invented.
BUT..we had NCLB which supposedly called for tougher standards already and not one single school in the US would have made the NCLB mandate of 100% pass their state tests in 2014.
Schools jumped on the CC bandwagon because NCLB was going to destroy their kingdoms in 2014.
Don't forget..if they didn't move over to CC then they had to go with the NCLB mandate of 100% passing.
Sure they would have made the standard. The states would have simply reduced the standard until almost anyone would pass.
That is the NCLB problem. The state got to set the standard.
And Please...NCLB never, never never called for a tigher standard. It just called for a higher pass rate.
That messes them up when they get into the bigger numbers and also subtraction, especially when you have to borrow from the next column.
Because they never really memorized 8+6 they now have several hoops to jump to get to 14.
Now they "borrowed" from the other ones place. They then get confused when you borrow from the tens place to do subtraction so when they borrow they add to the number but not as a borrowed 10.
And then they try to do the same with fractions....1/8 + 1/6 becomes 1/7 + 1/7 and they think it's ok because they "just borrowed".
And then when they get to Algebra and tack on some variable, exponents and logs to that number and they are totally lost without calculators.
Your foundation math is addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Those that just memorize them and skip the extra steps fare much better in the later grades when math becomes more difficult.
I do Math tutoring (math remediation for those failing) from grades 3-8. The same pattern emerges for these kids..they do not know their foundational math and cannot do any of the higher level math.
I see this as well, and it is supported by legitimate research.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
Looking at the history I have to strongly disagree with the thought that this is a Federal initiative.
In fact great care was taken to keep it out of Federal hands. There was a Federal role perhaps but a negative one. The NCLB basically incentiveized the states to adopt weakened standards. Very high goals in NCLB but you could get there easiest by dumbing down the standard. Otherwise though it was a State initiative. Sure there are some other players like Gates. What else do you do with multiple billions if not try and fix things?
The objections raised seem to deal primarily with implemention, particularly testing. I would think that a different issue. You still need a standard.
And I strongly differ that CT should have a different standard than NV. If there is more money perhaps I find no fault in CT enriching the basics. But the basics ought to be consistent. And they were probably closer before NCLB made it desirable to cheat.
So I would think if Common Core is not right we should fix Common Core. I expect what will happen is we will have a set of states deselect Common Core and then institute a standard that is at least 98% Common Core. Then we will have a gradually erosion of the standard as States try to look better without effort or spending money. And that is what is enabled
Without going into another long posting on what is wrong with CC, I'm just going to disagree with you and refer you to all the experts here who actually interact with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapmd
Lets take a look at countries that do well: Finland is made up of mostly Finns. Denmark made up mostly of Danes. Germany made up of...yeah Germans. The USA is doing "even worse" than Slovenia and Slovakia, but when you think about it they're not doing bad at all and the reason for that is because they are just as intelligent as their Western Euro counterparts.
Lets be honest with ourselves. How much would scores in the US improve if we removed Detroit from the equation? What would happen if we didn't factor Baltimore in? Or Atlanta or Birmingham? Would the overall average not improve once we remove the dregs who simply don't want to learn anyway?
Comparing a city like Memphis, TN to Munich isn't exactly fair, whereas comparing Fargo to Frankfurt seems pretty reasonable. Lets be honest with ourselves here, even if that truth is "uncomfortable" for some.
I don't think pandering to the lowest common denominator is the definition of "tougher."
Ivorytickler's post hit the bullseye!
We need to stop catering to the dummies and devote resources to those who choose to succeed. There is zero sense in wasting disproportionate amounts of time, money, and teachers' energy trying to boost the dregs from horrible all the way up to terrible.
Another point that needs to be made is that many countries that score above us cull out the worst performers. China, who is number one, only reports for Shanghai. So in poorer areas, those students don't take the test. Several other countries are known to practice this as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
Except, of course, that CC doesn't do away with the traditional way students are taught to do arithmetic.
They give lip service. The assessments focus on alternative methods that are developmentally inappropriate for many students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF
There may be problems with CC, but it's rather annoying when people look at one or two problems, fail to understand the point, don't look at the standard, and then conclude that it's terrible.
Have you been living under a rock? *searches for head-exploding emoticon*
An overwhelming proportion of educators are against it. When the feds had previously made decisions, those decisions rarely affected students from highly educated families. Now they are dealing with educated people who can explicate and deconstruct what is going on and Duncan, a person who has no business making education policy decisions, has made it quite clear he is not going to tolerate any push back.
There may be problems with CC, but it's rather annoying when people look at one or two problems, fail to understand the point, don't look at the standard, and then conclude that it's terrible.
So what is the problem CC is trying to fix and how? Specifics, not hopes.
Without going into another long posting on what is wrong with CC, I'm just going to disagree with you and refer you to all the experts here who actually interact with it.
.
No cigar. I gave up believing in experts when I first became one.
Virtually all appear to be complaining about the implementation of the testing. Including you.
The standard is needed. Fix it if busted.
But no you cannot get away with opposition. You need an alternative.
No cigar. I gave up believing in experts when I first became one.
So the next time I need to sell a house, should I trust your expertise? Should I mosey on over to the RE forum and tell them what wrong with real estate agents, buying and selling houses, and be the expert all because I've bought a house before?
If I need a triple bypass, I'm going to a heart surgeon (expert) because a podiatrist isn't going to cut it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
Virtually all appear to be complaining about the implementation of the testing. Including you.
Of course I call to task the implementing of the testing. It's awful. I've seen it and had to implement it.
If you would be so kind as to read the other content I and others have written, you would see that the experts wrote on a great many topics related to Common Core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
The standard is needed. Fix it if busted.
They weren't busted.
Every state, prior to CC, had standards. And they were pretty similar nationwide. The standards were not what was broken. The education system is broken and it has little to do with the curriculum standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
But no you cannot get away with opposition. You need an alternative.
Au contraire. I can and will oppose it. I will encourage others to oppose it. I will vote against anyone who supports it (and, previously, I have never been a one-issue voter). And most of all, I will provide a cogent argument against it when those who have no experience or real knowledge in this area and makes uneducated remarks and ineffective solutions.
If I were in charge of the school district tomorrow, the next day there would be an effective alternative. I am, however, only a lowly teacher and will not be allowed to weigh in. That's because we live in a society in which everyone is an expert in education except those who have been trained and have developed techniques that work with their demographic.
As for your fractions example, they already do things like that without CC, because they never actually learned how to apply algorithms correctly.
There may be problems with CC, but it's rather annoying when people look at one or two problems, fail to understand the point, don't look at the standard, and then conclude that it's terrible.
I've been working with remedial students for near 4 years now.
It's not "one or two" problems and it's not one or two students.
It's a pattern shown by many of them over and over and over from 3rd grade through 6th grade.
The complexity of CC confuses them and they fall further behind.
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