Are people in El Paso patriotic Americans? (West, Howe: school, tax)

[JazzOne]

Originally Posted by Fred1209

But he was debating the issue, the one making the attacks is you! ie "I object to your grammar"

You conveniently left out the part of the quote wherein I commended USMC for learning English. You are a master of misdirection and logical fallacies.

[mrsmeyer]

Originally Posted by mistabinks

LOL, where have you been? This forum is founded on "I heard" "My Aunt told me" "Someone said."

this is hilarious but sooooo true.....

[usmc el paso]

Originally Posted by JazzOne

+1



It's just not PC to acknowledge that. It's uncomfortable for people to accept that each person is responsible for his own knowledge or lack thereof. The opportunity is there for everyone in America to learn English. Some just choose not to do it.

I too believe in personal responsibility and agree that we have too many "victims" in our society, but I disagree with your statement that many young Mexican kids are too lazy to learn the language. I know a plethora of examples of these young immigrant kids learning the language, going to college and starting businesses, and that's just in my extended family.
These immigrant kids are no different than any group that has come before them or will come after them. Also if you went to the midwest or south and asked if high school kids were patriotic you would find that they are too busy with their lives listening to their ipods to think about patriotism.

[usmc el paso]

Originally Posted by JazzOne

Absolutely, and I was very interested to hear his examples of patriotism in El Paso. Instead, he posted sarcastic questions and false accusations in response to my comments. Whether or not he knows about patriotism, he apparently lacks knowledge of logical reasoning.

Like a famous greek philosopher once said, "How can you reason with unreasonable people". You wanted a logical reasoning response, yet your whole assertion of "many mexican kids being too lazy" is full of holes to be taken seriously hence that response. If you want a real analitical debate you better bring facts with links, not just random accusations of a large segment of a population.

[usmc el paso]

Originally Posted by mistabinks

lol, where have you been? This forum is founded on "i heard" "my aunt told me" "someone said."

:d

+1

[JazzOne]

Originally Posted by usmc el paso

Like a famous greek philosopher once said, "How can you reason with unreasonable people".

Which Greek philospher? (Notice the capitalization?) You don't even know his name? I seriously doubt you have read any of them to a significant extent. You are the one who apparently does not know the meanings of the words you use (ie, generalize). Reasonable people do not quote writings that they haven't even read. "How can you reason with unreasonable people" is a question. I guess you were absent the day they taught punctuation.

Originally Posted by usmc el paso

You wanted a logical reasoning response, yet your whole assertion of "many mexican kids being too lazy" is full of holes to be taken seriously hence that response. If you want a real analitical debate you better bring facts with links, not just random accusations of a large segment of a population.

You may not take my assertion seriously, but that is due to your own naivete, not the falsehood of the statement itself. I'd certainly like to have an analytical debate, but I am starting to doubt your English skills. Can you make a single post without multiple spelling and grammar errors? It is often difficult to discern your meaning because the syntax is so flawed.

You want links? This is going to be too easy.

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/jtf...iciencyJTF.pdf

54% [of California immigrants] report speaking Spanish at home, 21% of whom report speaking English "not at all."

21% don't speak a lick of English. Perhaps they should learn the language before they immigrate? Nah, that would take too much effort.

In California, 32% of immigrants live in households where no one older than age 13 speaks English "very well."

More than one-quarter of immigrant children ages 5 to 18 do not speak English at all.

17% of Spanish-speaking immigrants who had arrived at least a decade earlier reported that they still did not speak English.

Seriously? They couldn't learn English in a decade? If that's not laziness, I really don't know what is, and we're talking about nearly 1/5 of the Spanish-speaking immigrants. Do you think 1/5 of Spanish-speaking immigrants constitute "many" or a "large segment of a population"? I do.

A majority of Americans do not think that proficiency in English among immigrants is accomplished quickly enough - 58% say recent immigrants do not learn English within a "reasonable" time frame.

Oh wait, I'm not the only one who believes this? A majority of Americans agree with me? Maybe my position isn't so unreasonable after all. Maybe certain people are just sensitive because they overcame the language barrier and don't think my comments apply to them. Well, they don't. My comments only apply to the many lazy people in our country.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/20.pdf
41% of Latinos do NOT believe that "immigrants have to speak English to be a part of American society." Perhaps that's not an example of laziness, but "apathy" sure fits.

To be fair, I am certain there are many immigrants who are motivated and do learn English. However, that is not inconsistent with the idea that there are many who are not motivated and do not care to learn English.

[JazzOne]

Originally Posted by usmc el paso

I too believe in personal responsibility and agree that we have too many "victims" in our society, but I disagree with your statement that many young Mexican kids are too lazy to learn the language. I know a plethora of examples of these young immigrant kids learning the language, going to college and starting businesses, and that's just in my extended family.
These immigrant kids are no different than any group that has come before them or will come after them. Also if you went to the midwest or south and asked if high school kids were patriotic you would find that they are too busy with their lives listening to their ipods to think about patriotism.

This is the first rational post you've made. However, your anecdotal examples are insufficient to counter my argument. I contend that many immigrants are too lazy to learn English. I never claimed they all were. Why do you have such a hard time understanding that distinction? I agree with you 100% about high school kids in general, but the thread is specifically about El Paso. I believe that English illiteracy is the biggest problem in this city, and as I previously stated, it is hard to be patriotic when you cannot read our founding documents or understand our laws. I only brought up students because that is the group of immigrants I am most familiar with, and the amount of laziness I see among them (including the immigrants) is quite sad.

[Gary Siete]

From your link:"More than one‐quarter of immigrant children ages 5 to 18 do not speak English at all. Second‐generation children (those with at least one parent born in the U.S.) speak English at higher levels of fluency – only 4% do not speak English or do not speak it well. By the third generation (both parents born in the U.S.), all young people report that they speak English at least “very well,” and the vast majority (96%) report that they speak only English."

This rate of assimilation is typical in most immigrant receiving countries. I don't take it as being a sign of being unpatriotic.

[JazzOne]

Originally Posted by Gary Siete

From your link:"More than one‐quarter of immigrant children ages 5 to 18 do not speak English at all. Second‐generation children (those with at least one parent born in the U.S.) speak English at higher levels of fluency – only 4% do not speak English or do not speak it well. By the third generation (both parents born in the U.S.), all young people report that they speak English at least “very well,” and the vast majority (96%) report that they speak only English."

This rate of assimilation is typical in most immigrant receiving countries. I don't take it as being a sign of being unpatriotic.

I think it is unpatriotic for people to live here at all without the ability to decipher our laws. Keep in mind, I don't think everyone has a civic duty to be patriotic. I just don't see how anyone can claim to understand what America is all about without reading our founding documents as they were originally written. Anyway, the most damning quote from that link is the one about immigrants who have been here for more than a decade. What excuse is there not to know English after a decade in America? Lack of patriotism.

My paternal grandfather immigrated from Poland. He recounted stories of his parents disallowing their native language in the home because it failed to show pride in America. That's patriotism.

[usmc el paso]

Originally Posted by Gary Siete

From your link:"More than one‐quarter of immigrant children ages 5 to 18 do not speak English at all. Second‐generation children (those with at least one parent born in the U.S.) speak English at higher levels of fluency – only 4% do not speak English or do not speak it well. By the third generation (both parents born in the U.S.), all young people report that they speak English at least “very well,” and the vast majority (96%) report that they speak only English."

This rate of assimilation is typical in most immigrant receiving countries. I don't take it as being a sign of being unpatriotic.

Checkmate!! The stats provided clearly show a similar pattern of assimilation for hispanic immigrants just like any other group. This of course proves your fallacy for what it is, a belief about a group of people based on nothing but bias. Thanks for proving yourself wrong with your own stats.