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Look. Yanukovych invited the Ministers of Germany and France and made an agreement with them about his resignation. Who invited Nuland? Who gave her the right to maintain anti-constitutional coup? Who allowed her to say "F**k EU?" Ukraine? No, because ALL Ukraine elected president (Yanukovich) in democratic elections. Why is a legitimate president was forced to flee, while Germany and France supported the revolutionaries (despite the agreement)? Why Donbass and Crimea must agree to these events?
Do they still play this crap on Russia Today? You mistakingly believe that none of us remember the sequence of events. EU appeasers and Nuland, geeze Poroshenko & Co, did all they could for Maidan protesters and Yanukovich to come to terms keeping Yanukovich in power until 2015. Maidan protesters knew their Donetsk mafioso better than EU appeasers, they knew that Yanukovich would use both criminal and state repression to wipe/silence them one by one by the election date, just like Vlad dealt with 2012 Bolotnaya protesters in Russia, only more intense with more mafioso action.
And then Yanukovich just fled for no apparent "survival" reason, and I have a hunch Vlad made him an offer. A bright opportunistic idea of Anschluss and blitzkrieg entered Vlad' mind. This makes Yanukovich not only a coward but also a traitor, thus talking about his legitimacy is insane. His legitimacy ended right at the moment he decided to flee and to betray his country. BTW, Russian collaborants view him as a coward and traitor, but for different reasons. They thought of him as a gauleiter of Ukraine, until Russia will decide to end the sham, but he was too soft for the job.
Last edited by RememberMee; 02-02-2016 at 11:00 AM..
Kharkiv was founded by Ukrainian cosacks, and the region "Sloboda Ukraine" was populatated by Ukrainian people in 17th century when tartar nomads no longer were unquestioned masters of the steppes. Ukrainians did not run to Russian fortress, there was none at the time, just steppe, Muscovites thought it belonged to them, and tartar nomads thought it was theirs, Ukrainian Hetmanat and Kozaks had different ideas, it didnt occur to them to ask for Moscow permission to settle there. It was like wild West at the time.
You mean it was founded in 1654 - amazingly enough the same year when "Ukrainians" asked for the protection of Russia? Not from "Tartar nomads," but from Catholic Poland you know))))
And the reason they asked for protection from Catholics - make a wild guess why exactly)))
The next point that I want to outline for you in Wikipedia is the following:
"The city was founded in 1654 and after a humble beginning as a small fortress grew out to a major center of Ukrainian culture within the Russian Empire."
So whatever development ( with Kharkov as the capital of it) that region achieved, it was not your "proud and genius Ukrainians," - it was the accomplishment of the "evil Russian Empire" that you hate so much.
More than that, since it was the Evil Empire that developed that region and made it prosperous, the Council of the Mining Industrialists of Southern Russia - one of the first organizations of big capital in the Russian Empire was sitting precisely in Kharkov from 1877 to 1918.
But read on, since those are the facts that English Wiki totally omits, just mentioning that "Kharkov became the first city in Ukraine occupied by Soviettroops in December 1917. It functioned as the first capital of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic until January 1935,"
So let me clue you in, what happened to Kharkov in-between. In March-February of 1918 the Donetsk-Krivorozhsk republic has been created and included in Russian Federation as "autonomous region." The reason for it was economic basis (among other things,) argued already by the mentioned above Council of the Mining Industry back in Tzarist times, that the very division of the region in three administrative units ( Ekaterinburg and Kharkov gubernias plus autonomous region of the Don cossack host) didn't make any sense from economy's point of view. In 1917 when the Provisional Government of Russia had an argument with the Central Rada in Kiev, that wanted to extend its jurisdiction not only to so-called "Malorossiya" ( i.e. the regions around Kiev,) but Donbass as well, the Council of the Minining Industries of Southern Russia pointed at the danger of passing the regions strategic for Russian economic development to Kiev's Rada, pursuing the nationalistic motives. The head of the Council, Nikolay von Ditmar stated that "This whole region differs greatly both in industrial, as much as in cultural sense of it, from Kiev region.
This region has its great importance for Russia, it lives its independent life and administrative subordination of Kharkov to Kiev not only is not called for, but such artificial subordination... will only make difficult the life of the district. Particularly that such request for subordination to Kiev is not dictated by the practicality or state necessities, but it's fueled by the demands of the nationalist movement." So the Provisionary Government of Russia sent the "temporary instruction" to Rada, where it approved Kiev's jurisdiction over only 5 regions instead of demanded 9.
So those were economic and cultural reasons behind the original decision of new Communist government to include Kharkov ( and the near-by lands) into the Russian Federation, not Ukraine. This decision has been implemented on the local level, however it was Lenin who didn't approve of this decision and later signed a decree transferring the region to Ukraine in 1919.
Quote:
Anyway, comrade Frolov, you are amusingly flexible, when it suits your grand imperial delusions. In this case you dismiss Ukrainian origins of the settlers. In Crimea, Donbass case you dismiss Ukrainian state claims of possession of the lands populated by the russified ukrainians and russians.
Now quit your clowning please, since I am providing this thread with detailed information in order to counteract all your slander. However because of your usual inability to keep the discussion civil, it might be deleted yet again.
Quote:
That is where your russian links distort the truth a little, and the claim of old (Kievan) Rus settlement in the area is pure fiction. Ukrainians settled virgin steppes Tartar nomads no longer could control, primitive Muscovy fortress came after the area was settled. Ukrainian settlers recognized authority of Muscovite tsars in the face of ongoing war with Poland where Ukrainian and Muscovites were allies, and Ukrainian cossacks had more burning threats in the west. Little they knew. In the next 350 years Russian state (under different brands) dedicated itself to wiping out Ukrainian statehood and identity to turn Ukrainians into biomaterial for the Russian empire. Russian Empire treated Kharkiv region as a heathen populated area to be assimilated, and it used standard colonizer tools.
The "primitive Muscovy fortress" was an inseparable part of Kievan Rus, as much as the ancient Russian cities of the Golden Ring. Kievan Rus was a sore loser, an atavism that didn't have any future other than being gulped up by the neighboring Poland and Catholic Church. ( The western provinces are a good example of it.) And that's the reason why the unification of former "Kievan Rus" lands happened under Moscow, not Kiev.
RememberMee, I will not communicate with you, I do not see the point in this.
If you see the point in the flooding this and other threads with typical Russian propaganda, delusions, manias, manipulative interpretations, you should see the point in trying to rationalize those peculiar conditionings you received using reason and facts. City-Data forums are not Russia Today yet.
Regarding the grand western conspiracy claims in your last message. Here is how Washington and EU tried to "undermine" Yanukovich after his miracluous 180 degrees turn around on that mostly symbolic EU-Ukraine deal.
The US and EU called for an end to the violence and urgent political talks.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yanukovich, and three opposition leaders have signed an agreement intended to end a crisis that sparked bloody clashes between protesters and police on the streets of the capital, Kiev.......Poland's foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, was caught on video telling a protest leader: "If you don't support this deal you will have martial law, the army. You'll be dead."......Oleh Tyahnibok, an opposition leader, said the protest council had reached an agreement with the acting minister of interior to resolve the crisis, in which 100 people are thought to have been killed in the last three days......Vitali Klitschko, leader of Ukraine's Udar opposition party, shakes hands with President Viktor Yanukovych after the signing of the agreement in Kiev, Ukraine. ..... Ukraine opposition leaders sign deal with government | World news | The Guardian
Everybody was on the same page, Yanukovich, EU, Nuland, opposition leaders except the people on the streets, who unlike well off opposition leaders with secure landing pads outside of Ukraine, feared for their lives and freedom.
It was not clear whether protesters would accept the deal. Anton Solovyov, 28, an IT worker in the central square, said: "This is just another piece of paper. We will not leave the barricades until Yanukovych steps down. That's all people want."
And then Vlad made Yanukovych an offer he could not refuse, blitzkrieg and anschluss temptations overwhelmed Kremlin' twerp. Yanukovych fled for no apparent safety reason (as though it is an excuse for a commander in chief), and as Romans would have put it: "Cui Bono?" "To whose profit?". To profit of German, French, most of the EU appeasers who cannot wait to constitutionally partition Ukraine to Vlad' satisfaction in order to resume business as usual with Vlad? Yup, these 2 years exposed EU "masterminds", the spirit of Munich is alive and well, all Europeans want is peace, and trade with whomever for as long as there is a slightest opportunity to hold on illusions. EU and Putin' Russia fell in love with Orwellian doublespeak albeit for different reasons.
If you see the point in the flooding this and other threads with typical Russian propaganda, delusions, manias, manipulative interpretations, you should see the point in trying to rationalize those peculiar conditionings you received using reason and facts. City-Data forums are not Russia Today yet.
Regarding the grand western conspiracy claims in your last message. Here is how Washington and EU tried to "undermine" Yanukovich after his miracluous 180 degrees turn around on that mostly symbolic EU-Ukraine deal.
The US and EU called for an end to the violence and urgent political talks.
Ukraine's president, Viktor Yanukovich, and three opposition leaders have signed an agreement intended to end a crisis that sparked bloody clashes between protesters and police on the streets of the capital, Kiev.......Poland's foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, was caught on video telling a protest leader: "If you don't support this deal you will have martial law, the army. You'll be dead."......Oleh Tyahnibok, an opposition leader, said the protest council had reached an agreement with the acting minister of interior to resolve the crisis, in which 100 people are thought to have been killed in the last three days......Vitali Klitschko, leader of Ukraine's Udar opposition party, shakes hands with President Viktor Yanukovych after the signing of the agreement in Kiev, Ukraine. ..... Ukraine opposition leaders sign deal with government | World news | The Guardian
Everybody was on the same page, Yanukovich, EU, Nuland, opposition leaders except the people on the streets, who unlike well off opposition leaders with secure landing pads outside of Ukraine, feared for their lives and freedom.
It was not clear whether protesters would accept the deal. Anton Solovyov, 28, an IT worker in the central square, said: "This is just another piece of paper. We will not leave the barricades until Yanukovych steps down. That's all people want."
And then Vlad made Yanukovych an offer he could not refuse, blitzkrieg and anschluss temptations overwhelmed Kremlin' twerp. Yanukovych fled for no apparent safety reason (as though it is an excuse for a commander in chief), and as Romans would have put it: "Cui Bono?" "To whose profit?". To profit of German, French, most of the EU appeasers who cannot wait to constitutionally partition Ukraine to Vlad' satisfaction in order to resume business as usual with Vlad? Yup, these 2 years exposed EU "masterminds", the spirit of Munich is alive and well, all Europeans want is peace, and trade with whomever for as long as there is a slightest opportunity to hold on illusions. EU and Putin' Russia fell in love with Orwellian doublespeak albeit for different reasons.
I am not sure, what are you so surprised about?
That Europeans don't want to play along with the US in their goals to hit Russian interests and ultimately destroy the country?
And why Europeans wouldn't want peace? Why would they want to have major conflicts/wars because of some Ukraine? What's Ukraine to them, why should they care about Ukrainians to the point that they'd want to risk anything major because of them?
This is one of the reasons why your average Russians think of Ukrainians as very foolish people, since they themselves went through the "eye opening" process in the 90ies. The rude awakening so to speak.
And Oleg Tyagnibock? What Oleg Tyagnibock? This one, the leader of Svoboda party ? -
The kind of party ( and leaders) that immediately have set alarm in the South-East of the country?
Yes, you bet Ukraine is going to be partitioned, and too bad that you see only fault of "Vlad" in that, and none of your own.
But then, again, I think that without the Nationalist element and Pravyi sector Maidan would have never achieved that victory.
So it all looks quite predetermined, unavoidable and fatalistic in a way.
For 2015 the Ukrainian government has spent 400 million UAH for the construction of "the line of fortifications" on the border with Russia in Chernihiv and Kharkiv regions. In total, managed to construct 230 kilometers of anti-tank ditches.
In the course of works conducted in two regions of Ukraine in the framework of the project "European Val" designed to "repel possible attacks of the Russian troops", were built 72 kilometres of fencing fence, 115 km of lateral roads, and has 10 firing positions, and five control points.
It should be noted that the total length of the border of Kharkiv and Chernihiv oblasts with Russia exceeds 400 km, while between them is Sumy region, which the report information is not available. But 400 million hryvnia (about 15.6 million dollars), allocated for the "European shaft" from the state budget, were, as stated in the report, "fully mastered".
The photos appeared on the Facebook page of the Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk after he visited the "European shaft", not too impressive for a separate anti-tank "hedgehogs" and concrete obstacles, wrapped in ribbons of barbed wire is low (slightly above human height), the fence of wire mesh with barbed wire on top.
Ukrainians don't decide anything, they do everything for US. Vice President Joe Biden is beneficial to the post of Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk left, as it obeys all the orders of America and she signs the necessary papers without even reading them.
Today in the Verkhovna Rada, said MP of Ukraine Mykola Tomenko.
According to the MP, if we talk about the government change in the near future Ukraine is waiting for the third American Cabinet, but not Ukrainian. And so America decided, as Ukrainians in this country do not decide anything. He noted that when Vice President Joe Biden was in Ukraine on an official visit, he made it clear that Asenyka the post of Prime Minister is absolutely satisfied with the American government. And on the eve of the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt reiterated the words of Biden, so anywhere Yatsenyuk from the post is not going anywhere.
"Yatsenyuk is a person of America. He was completely satisfied with the American authorities, as meekly does what he is told. He signs all documents of the IMF and other international institutions even without reading them, so as said so in the USA. I want to have the Ukrainian government, without American lobbyists. We have our own experts and we're doing fine with their country. As America to explain what we want to be an independent country" said Tomenko.
The MP also believes that even though today many parties are against the current government and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, they would still not be able to go against the will of Biden. "Today we have people that firmly stand on my opinion. Here we take "Batkivshchyna", it was against the amendments to the Constitution, but they eventually voted. Take the "Radical party" Oleg Lyashko yells: there are bandits, there Scaminaci, but along with them we are ready to save the Ukrainian economy", — said the MP.
In addition, Tomenko is confident that the new government will be more than previous. According to him, now is the redistribution of seats in the Cabinet, and wanting a lot, so the government will set up a new place.
We will remind, earlier in the Parliament, said that the report of the government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk for 2015 is the utopia of the Golden year of non-existent Ukrainian state. But real results of work of the Cabinet is macro-economic indicators, a dramatic fall in GDP, constant corruption scandals, lack of real reforms.
Re: 'Ukrainians don't decide anything, they do everything for US. Vice President Joe Biden is beneficial to the post of Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyuk left, as it obeys all the orders of America and she signs the necessary papers without even reading them'
You know exaggeration appears to get into flights of fancy around here. We must argue that there are multitudes of 'interests' here. Fear runs deep between Ukraine and Russia. Each have their 'tag teams' in this terrible low-hitting wrestling match. Sorry to say but in the big picture Vlad has brought upon himself what he has feared all along...the bringing together of Europe including Ukraine in holding off any idea of future predilections for 10 finger discounts of territory on the European continent by Russia.
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