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Average construction worker, probably not. Average office worker/couch potato: No problem. Of course, the size mismatch would have to be factored in. If some guy is pretty young, healthy and 250 lbs. Any average size women in these professions is going to have a problem taking them down.
Like this? The marshal told police she pulled up her pants and chased after Mr. Flynn, screaming, “Federal marshal! Stop!” and asking people nearby to call 911. She followed him to a staircase behind an apartment building in the 100 block of Anderson Street and again told him to stop because she was a marshal, police said. Mr. Flynn, who is 6 feet, 4 inches tall, “attempted to charge” at the marshal, who is 5 feet, 5 inches tall, according to the complaint. Police said the woman “feared that Flynn was going to assault her again” so she kicked him in the crotch, grabbed him by the shoulder and punched him in the face.
Like this? The marshal told police she pulled up her pants and chased after Mr. Flynn, screaming, “Federal marshal! Stop!” and asking people nearby to call 911. She followed him to a staircase behind an apartment building in the 100 block of Anderson Street and again told him to stop because she was a marshal, police said. Mr. Flynn, who is 6 feet, 4 inches tall, “attempted to charge” at the marshal, who is 5 feet, 5 inches tall, according to the complaint. Police said the woman “feared that Flynn was going to assault her again” so she kicked him in the crotch, grabbed him by the shoulder and punched him in the face.
Nice and all, but he did not fight back, at all.
Change that situation to where he decided to fight back, and a different result would have happened.
Also, it states only his height, not his weight, the dude could be 180lbs for all we know, and she at 5'5" coming in at 140lbs, only a 40lbs difference.
But the key here is he never fought back, not one single time from any article I could find.
Where the suspect attacked the cop, both males (though from the pics the suspect looks to have at least 30lbs on the cop, but I cannot find good photos), and the took the cops gun and hit the cop with it; this is the difference between someone not attacking, as in your post, and someone attacking.
Female suspect attacking female cop, as you see, the cop had a lot of difficulty, passengers had to help. Again, this is someone attacking, key difference from your post.
It is easy to defeat someone who is not on the offensive.
Change that situation to where he decided to fight back, and a different result would have happened.
Also, it states only his height, not his weight, the dude could be 180lbs for all we know, and she at 5'5" coming in at 140lbs, only a 40lbs difference.
But the key here is he never fought back, not one single time from any article I could find.
Where the suspect attacked the cop, both males (though from the pics the suspect looks to have at least 30lbs on the cop, but I cannot find good photos), and the took the cops gun and hit the cop with it; this is the difference between someone not attacking, as in your post, and someone attacking.
It is easy to defeat someone who is not on the offensive.
It's clear that you don't think women should be Police Officers and I am ok with you having that opinion, but what I find amusing is that people who just cringe at the thought of a female cop think nothing of a 150 pound male cop. You want some videos of male cops getting their a$$ handed to them? Or maybe that doesn't count. And just in case you didn't know - males and females take the same physical agility test and go to the same academy. Part of the testing in the academy is arrest control and you can't graduate unless you can demonstrate that you can control a resisting adult subject.
........It is easy to defeat someone who is not on the offensive.
Curious point. Quite a while back, not sure if I was doing police work then or not, I came up with this scenario. "You are going out to meet someone. Unknown to you, this person intends to do you in. There are four possible responses to this situation.
Condition 4: You are unprepared for his attack and he gets you.
Condition 3: He attacks and you defend. He may or may not get you.
Condition 2: He attacks and you respond offensively.
Condition 1: (more of an equation balancer) It's a strike mission and you are out to get him.
Conclusion: On any meeting with an unknown, responses will be set at Condition 2 or better for while it can be expected that he is ready for someone who won't defend or who will only defend......................
.............................he may not be ready for someone who is just as willing to kill as he is."
It's clear that you don't think women should be Police Officers and I am ok with you having that opinion,
I have never stated that women should not be police officers, I have no idea where you even get I implied that. Go review my previous posts in this thread or any thread, I state nothing of any sort that women should not be police officers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
but what I find amusing is that people who just cringe at the thought of a female cop think nothing of a 150 pound male cop.
Who are these "people"? While yes a few say that, generally when talking about averages, we are talking weight, which applies to men as well. I made that clear in my first post on the first page of this thread. But since this thread is about "averages", it is fact that given equal weight, a female is weaker than a male, I even gave an example of this on the first page of this thread. That does not at all mean females cannot be cops, there are many weak males out there that I apply the same criticism to.
But at that, females often have different physical fitness standards than males for the same job...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
You want some videos of male cops getting their a$$ handed to them? Or maybe that doesn't count. And just in case you didn't know - males and females take the same physical agility test and go to the same academy. Part of the testing in the academy is arrest control and you can't graduate unless you can demonstrate that you can control a resisting adult subject.
Both have different requirements. I did 12 years in the military including two years being the command athletic guru, so i know for fact they have different standards for males and females.
There are plenty of male cops getting their rears handed to them, I never stated there was not, and the entire premises of your post is incorrect regarding I stated females should not be cops.
Additionally, this "test" in the academy is not at all a realistic scenario, the person doing the opposing does it under a control resistance movement, the opposing person cannot strike the cop, use too much power, etc. Yes, I have been through a police academy, and several refresher courses. The training they give cops is pretty much BS, but I have explained this thoroughly in my previous posts in this thread.
Additionally, this "test" in the academy is not at all a realistic scenario, the person doing the opposing does it under a control resistance movement, the opposing person cannot strike the cop, use too much power, etc. Yes, I have been through a police academy, and several refresher courses. The training they give cops is pretty much BS, but I have explained this thoroughly in my previous posts in this thread.
That sort of training is a joke. It's neither realistic nor effective. A gun and a badge is what most police officers, male or female, are working with. The average female police officer would get beaten by the majority of men out there in any sort of physical confrontation. It's just how it is.
Depends on the women. I knew some gals in the Army that would beat the brakes off the average guy. Physical strength is only one part of the equation, a woman skilled in fighting should be able to take down an average guy but the # that have that level of skill is not very high. Just being in the military or police doesnt guarantee anything considering the limited hand to hand training the average individual gets, male and female.
Like this? The marshal told police she pulled up her pants and chased after Mr. Flynn, screaming, “Federal marshal! Stop!” and asking people nearby to call 911. She followed him to a staircase behind an apartment building in the 100 block of Anderson Street and again told him to stop because she was a marshal, police said. Mr. Flynn, who is 6 feet, 4 inches tall, “attempted to charge” at the marshal, who is 5 feet, 5 inches tall, according to the complaint. Police said the woman “feared that Flynn was going to assault her again” so she kicked him in the crotch, grabbed him by the shoulder and punched him in the face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
Nice and all, but he did not fight back, at all.
Change that situation to where he decided to fight back, and a different result would have happened.
Also, it states only his height, not his weight, the dude could be 180lbs for all we know, and she at 5'5" coming in at 140lbs, only a 40lbs difference.
But the key here is he never fought back, not one single time from any article I could find.
Where the suspect attacked the cop, both males (though from the pics the suspect looks to have at least 30lbs on the cop, but I cannot find good photos), and the took the cops gun and hit the cop with it; this is the difference between someone not attacking, as in your post, and someone attacking.
Female suspect attacking female cop, as you see, the cop had a lot of difficulty, passengers had to help. Again, this is someone attacking, key difference from your post.
It is easy to defeat someone who is not on the offensive.
Another former LEO here.
When I read that story 2sleepy linked to, I had the same impression as Boxus: It seemed as if the perv who grabbed the marshal didn't put up a fight. I also felt there could have been legal issues in her handling of the confrontation. Not sure without more details, but there could possibly be some issues there.
In any case, this incident does little to answer the question posed in this thread. The guy would have had to really put up a fight for anyone to even begin to have an idea how the marshal could handle herself in an all-out brawl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
. . . males and females take the same physical agility test and go to the same academy. Part of the testing in the academy is arrest control and you can't graduate unless you can demonstrate that you can control a resisting adult subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
But at that, females often have different physical fitness standards than males for the same job...
Both have different requirements. I did 12 years in the military including two years being the command athletic guru, so i know for fact they have different standards for males and females.
Again Boxus has it right. I've had experience in law enforcement and I've read the requirements for the military. Male and female candidates usually do the same tests. The exception is found in the Marines, where men do pull-ups and they've considered the question of whether to test women on pull-ups, but, the last time I read about it they still had women do the arm hang test instead of pull-ups.
Even though they do the same exercises, aside from that one exception, women have to meet lower standards to attain the same scores: fewer push-ups, slower time on running tests, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
Additionally, this "test" in the academy is not at all a realistic scenario, the person doing the opposing does it under a control resistance movement, the opposing person cannot strike the cop, use too much power, etc. Yes, I have been through a police academy, and several refresher courses. The training they give cops is pretty much BS, but I have explained this thoroughly in my previous posts in this thread.
Again, you've got it right. Looking back on my LE experience, I have the impression that basic training in police academies is not really designed to make the candidates truly capable officers in the same way an experienced cop will be.
The idea is more to get you to a point where you manage to survive without getting yourself killed or sued or beaten to a pulp until you get in a couple of years of experience and then just begin to develop some real confidence and start to have some decent feel for how to do the job.
The self-defense training is like this. It teaches you the rudiments, and starts getting you a little bit comfortable with physical contact when someone resists arrest. Nothing but the actual experience of a real down-'n'-dirty brawl with a suspect who's fighting no-holds-barred will prepare you for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
. . . but what I find amusing is that people who just cringe at the thought of a female cop think nothing of a 150 pound male cop . . .
You can turn this around. If you question how well a 150-pound male cop can handle a hulk who really puts up a fight (without resorting to the use of weapons), then how many fewer kicking, flailing suspects can a 5'2", 110-pound woman deal with?
I haven't researched LE history extensively, but I have read occasionally about the era when police departments had physical size requirements. The most usual numbers seemed to be 5'8" and 145 lb. That was the minimum, so you can assume that many cops were bigger than that.
I'd guess that old-school police administrators would consider the situation ideal if every one of their officers was at least six feet tall, scored at the 99th percentile on every physical test, perfectly fit the psychological profile of the ideal cop, and was both a sharpshooter and a fifth-degree black belt. In the real world, they have to have lower standards than these in order to find enough applicants who qualify so they can fill the ranks.
In the real world, even when all patrol officers were male and there were minimum standards for height and weight, smallish-medium men could qualify. It's likely that most of these guys, with no more training than you get at the academy, would not be able to handle, with only their bare hands, some fighting suspects that a bigger male cop could out-fight. There are going to be all that many more suspects who, if they put up a real fight, will be too much for a petite female cop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago South Sider
That sort of training is a joke. It's neither realistic nor effective. A gun and a badge is what most police officers, male or female, are working with. The average female police officer would get beaten by the majority of men out there in any sort of physical confrontation. It's just how it is.
Yes. This and the other weapons cops carry, in addition to guns. Along with the fact that if they can at least hold their own for long enough, back-up will arrive and the suspect will be over-matched by numbers. The OP didn't specify whether we're talking about use of weapons, or more than one person fighting the suspect (or enemy in the military). Whether we're talking about using weapons, possibly with an advantage in numbers, or fighting bare-handed and one-on-one, makes the difference in how you'd answer the OP's question.
In the case of law enforcement, weapons and numbers give the cop an advantage. Without that, a female cop would have the same chance she'd have fighting the same suspect as a civilian in brawl, because the training she gets at the academy is not even close to enough to make her a skilled fighter.
Another former LEO here.In the case of law enforcement, weapons and numbers give the cop an advantage. Without that, a female cop would have the same chance she'd have fighting the same suspect as a civilian in brawl, because the training she gets at the academy is not even close to enough to make her a skilled fighter.
I agree, and that applies to men as well. If law enforcement required MMA fighters who could bench press 300 pounds then most men wouldn't qualify and probably only a tiny number of women would. But as you said, we are talking about doing a job where you have tools available to you, some lethal, some non-lethal and if you have half an ounce of brains you do what you can to avoid getting in a dangerous situation without backup.
All I am saying is that there are women who can do the job, and there are both men and women who are not suited to the work, either due to temperament, emotional stability or physical condition. One of the women I worked with was about 5'3 and probably weighed 125 lbs. She was extraordinarily fit and agile but didn't have the upper body strength of most fit adult males. Nonetheless she spent over 2 decades working patrol made tons of arrests and never got hurt. She was smart and fast and without saying a word made suspects feel like she would shoot them if they messed with her (and she very well might have). Was she lucky? maybe but she also realized her limitations and compensated for them, an art that some male cops would do well to learn instead of thinking that brute force is the only way to get compliance.
If you think only size makes a person "tough" you have little to no experience with actual brawls, fist fights, combat etc. It's a inner strength and mindset that drives the will to win at all costs. A adult wolverine nearly always sends a full grown adult grizzly bear running for the high road in tears. Tunnel rats in combat are viscous and generally are not large men. The average U.S. Navy SEAL is between 5' 8" and 6' tall. Iron Mike Tyson wasn't even 6' tall, he is about 5' 11". It's mental and when you combine the mental strength and focus with a abnormally physically strong and fit human body, that's a recipe for disaster. Someone so ferocious and viscous they will chew off an ear and spit it out. Can and will choke the life out of someone with soup can crushing hand strength, and or snap their neck like a twig. Being hit with multiple rounds fired and keep on going and going like nothing happened even though the blood is pouring. The strength comes from within no matter your size. If you have seen enough barroom brawls you probably have seen and average size man knock a fairly large man out cold with one punch. The last thing he heard was his fat 6' 4" 275 pound ass thumbing the floor before the lights went out. It's also aided with adrenaline and how your body makes it and in what amount. This "rage" that flows through you, it isn't a force to be toyed with.
Yes, some women with the proper training can run the ball on some very dangerous men. The first thing they teach anyone who has been formerly trained is to never underestimate your opponent until you've verified who is superior. It should also come as no supprize that extremely large men and women gas out very quickly and lack the stamina and speed small to average people do. They better connect with that one big punch because you remember how bad Mr. T. was huffing and puffing in Rocky 3 after Rocky worked him over. Mike Brown found out how effective being a big dumb linebacker got him when squaring off with Officer Wilson recently as well. He is now deceased and Wilson is enjoying rootbeer floats at Disney world. Nobody is bulletproof. It really only takes one strike to kill someone with your bare hands if you know exactly where and when to strike anyway. It would be in most folks best interest not to roll the dice on said female and how much training she has had. She can and will kill you.
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