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Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
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I'd say Dallas, it seems to have more in common with Atlanta than say Phoenix. Fort Worth felt kind of like a Western gateway to me, once you get West of the Motroplex you're gettin into the wide open spaces that seem characteristicly Western. El Paso is very much Southwestern in every way.
Ill go with Tulsa or even Dallas. Any further west and you are in "the west"
No, one is just in the "western South" It has almost nothing in common -- historically or culturally -- with the "southern West" of New Mexico and Arizona...much less the "West" of the Rocky Mountain states.
No, one is just in the "western South" It has almost nothing in common -- historically or culturally -- with the "southern West" of New Mexico and Arizona...much less the "West" of the Rocky Mountain states.
So Lubbock, TX is not really the Southwest even though it is very close geographically to New Mexico, and has a semi-arid drab brown landscape outside of some agricultural fields?
True, if you consider Baptist churches the primary indicator of Southern-ness. However, are people in Lubbock or Amarillo similar culturally to people in Birmingham or Jackson MS in ways other than religion?
Your premise is that the "South" is defined by the standards of the deep southeast, correct? What if I said that the "South" should properly be defined as those states whose capitals never surrendered to the yankees? Would you agree? They were Texas and Florida. Surprise, huh?
But of course, that fact is not tantamount to being a cornerstone of defining the South. I wouldn't either. So why should those of us in the western South accept that our southeastern cousins should have the right to classify "the South" as to how things are in Mobile or Jackson?
It if have to say it bluntly? You all in the the deep southeast need to understand that we are just as proud of our historical Southern identity and identification as you all are. We have the credentials to prove it. Wanna compare? I can do it...
So Lubbock, TX is not really the Southwest even though it is very close geographically to New Mexico, and has a semi-arid drab brown landscape outside of some agricultural fields?
Depends on how you define the "Southwest". As in commonality with eastern New Mexico and Arizona? Topographically? For the most part? Yes.
Historically and culturally? No. It is western South. West Texas is mostly the Old South moved into a western environment. It is Southern Baptist to the roots, Southern American English spoken to the core, and the political and religious attitudes of the South moved west. Which only makes sense because of the settlement patterns. The vast majority of the post-bellum western expansion as concerns Texas was displaced southeastern pioneers looking to get a new start.
This was not anything like the history/culture of the interior SW, which was dominated by Mexican, Spanish, and Native American influences as the primary.
Depends on how you define the "Southwest". As in commonality with eastern New Mexico and Arizona? Topographically? For the most part? Yes.
Historically and culturally? No. It is western South. West Texas is mostly the Old South moved into a western environment. It is Southern Baptist to the roots, Southern American English spoken to the core, and the political and religious attitudes of the South moved west. Which only makes sense because of the settlement patterns. The vast majority of the post-bellum western expansion as concerns Texas was displaced southeastern pioneers looking to get a new start.
This was not anything like the history/culture of the interior SW, which was dominated by Mexican, Spanish, and Native American influences as the primary.
Personally I think topography and architecture, in which west Texas has more in common with the Southwest than the Southeast, is just as important in creating the overall feel of a place as religion and voting patterns. But you are right, the true Southwest has far more of a Spanish/Native American influence as is very evident in New Mexico, Arizona, and southern California with the exception of the coastal metropolises.
What about San Antonio? Does it fit more with the Southeast or the Southwest?
Personally I think topography and architecture, in which west Texas has more in common with the Southwest than the Southeast, is just as important in creating the overall feel of a place as religion and voting patterns. But you are right, the true Southwest has far more of a Spanish/Native American influence as is very evident in New Mexico, Arizona, and southern California with the exception of the coastal metropolises.
I see your point of course, and agree with it on some levels. However, the qualifier is that much of the so-called "Southwestern" architecture in west Texas -- with the exception of historic cities like San Antonio -- is more the result of latter day planning than natural evolution...
Here is a good excerpt from an article on the subject:
Edited by Joseph Carleton Wilder
UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS
THE SOUTHWEST CENTER
TUCSON
From The Southwest Defined
****************
El Paso, culturally as well as physically, has belonged more with Southwestern cities Albuquerque and Tucson than with Dallas or Houston. However, the Spanish did explore and settle much of southern Texas, and that fact plus close historical ties with Mexico, remains the most legitimate-and only-claim the rest of Texas can present as a credential for membership in "the Southwest." And in many other ways Texas simply doesn't qualify, despite such vestigial Hispanic enclaves as San Antonio and Nacogdoches.
The physiographic Southwest houses cultural traits that give it a unique regional identity....(and)
Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."
Quote:
What about San Antonio? Does it fit more with the Southeast or the Southwest?
Again, a very good question! But, like Spade said, Texas, by and large, should be left out of this discussion, as it is not -- as a whole -- a "Southeastern" state. Southern? yes, but not "southEAST". Yeah, if broken down a bit, I can think of a few exceptions...and Dallas might well be one of them. Or at least was at one point in time. And certainly, depending upon the definition of exactly what constitutes a "city", then many small cities (such as Tyler, Texas) would qualify as the western-most extension of the Southeast in that regard.
But anyway, to reply to your very good question about San Antone? Hmmmm...that one is always a toughie. On one hand, and what many people don't know is that the city has strong Old South characteristics. In fact, even today, it advertizes itself as a "Blend of the Old South and Old Mexico."
But if I HAD to vote, one way or the other? I would honestly have to go with "Southeast" as the major shaping force. I know, I know...but I am saying this in the sense of "either/or". And the basis of comparrison being to major cities in New Mexico or Arizona...or even El Paso...which have almost nothing classically "Southern" about them; whereas San Antonio decidely does...
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