A perspective on Black Americans and crime, something I read. (Putin, death)

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by malamute

Interesting article but I don't agree with the conclusions of it.

It seems the south has the least incarceration rates of blacks but maybe there are cultural differences between blacks in most southern states and those in other regions.

For example, the slaves were brought to the south to work and that is where so-called black culture took root and maybe where there is more stability, more "roots", more heritage.

Those who left the south gave up family and regional ties and that may have created more instability.

I don't agree with the conclusions either. There are some things not being looked at.

Among them,

1) Reverse Great Migration
2) Rural vs Urban
3) Soft on crime vs hard on crime

One thing not taken into consideration is that there has been a migration of middle class Blacks to the South, particularly to states like Georgia and North Carolina. This migration might account for a lower incarceration rate.

Another factor is rural vs urban. Mississippi and Alabama have large numbers of Blacks living in rural areas. Mississippi especially. Same goes for Georgia. If anyone understands the geography of prison, prisons often draw from the cities, especially Black prisoners. Mississippi has more people in rural areas than urban areas.
Contrast this with Wisconsin, where a large part of the population lives around the Milwaukee metro area and the Madison metro area. 7 out of 10 Blacks in Wisconsin live in Milwaukee. Milwaukee's Black population is also beset with high levels of poverty, unemployment, and alot of fatherless homes. Chicago's gangs made alot of headway in Milwaukee because of this. Alot of prisons draw from Milwaukee, and probably Racine, Madison, and Kenosha as well.

And then the soft on crime theme. Take Maryland. Criminals from DC have frequently committed crimes in Maryland rather than Virginia. Maryland has a lower than average Black incarceration rate(the 2nd lowest in the nation), vs Virginia, which is slightly above the national average. Criminals prefer doing their dirt in Maryland, which is relatively softer in crime. Massachusetts has been relatively softer on crime than many states, although this is changing. Contrast this with Texas, which is known to be very heavy on incarceration and the death penalty.

[green_mariner]

There is something else to consider with Black incarcerations by state. A few cases of note to look at are Vermont and Montana. Both of these states have the smallest Black populations of any states. However, they have among the highest Black incarceration rates in the nation. South Dakota, which has the highest Black incarceration rate in the nation, has around 10,000 Blacks in the state. One thing could be that it doesn't take that many Blacks in prison in those states to have a high rate of imprisonment. I would state that with South Dakota, Whites also have a higher than average rate of incarceration, as does Montana.

[Slithytoves]

The whole Celtic argument falls apart once you start comparing county-by-county data for ethnic concentration, especially West of the Mississippi. I just spent some time doing this after reading the blog post...in many states with lower incarceration rates for Black people on the map the author provided, Blacks and people of Celtic descent aren't concentrated in the same locations. In some cases, they barely overlap at all.

Methinks this blogger is probably of Celtic descent, engaging in silly stereotypes that benefit his own POV from all angles.

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I don't agree with the conclusions either. There are some things not being looked at. Among them,

1) Reverse Great Migration
2) Rural vs Urban
3) Soft on crime vs hard on crime

These are some of the factors that occurred to me, too. As did this (VVV)

Originally Posted by malamute

It seems the south has the least incarceration rates of blacks but maybe there are cultural differences between blacks in most southern states and those in other regions.

Those who left the south gave up family and regional ties and that may have created more instability.

Agreed. Not only do Black Americans have cultural and family ties to the South, but they are more evenly distributed throughout each southern state than in other parts of the country, by far, and also have the benefit of larger overall numbers. Together, these conditions seem to improve the general conditions of living for Black people. Deeper ties to the community, less artificial concentration, various advantages of being a more substantial percentage of the total population (more power politically, stronger church systems, more historically black colleges, more black-owned businesses, etc.)...all good things. Where there is well-rounded support, there is less anti-social behavior. This applies to most all human categories.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

1. Races and ethnicity DO have particular traits. As a WHOLE. Agreed? That within WHOLE there is a different Self, does not change what WHOLE is.

When it comes to behavior (or intelligence), not genetically, no.

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

2. I feel, concerns that you have, about stereotypes, are valid of course. But let me ask you this. Didn't humanity have anything better to do, than to come up with them? Are ALL of them completely baseless and groundless and made up? Or there are, or have been some grounds for them, maybe later over exaggerated, blown out of proportion, yet - they did occur? Say, why is it, that anywhere Jews settled for longer time, they become hated? And this was going on since times unknown. Very smart, very hard working ethnicity. But fact stays. See my point?

People who buy into behavioral stereotypes of racial or ethnic groups and attribute them to heredity fail to take into account the many external variables that influence behavior, including the effects of various forms of oppression. Whole groups (or large segments thereof) that are exposed to the same or very similar external conditions may indeed exhibit like behaviors. But to assume an inherent cause where obvious external ones exist is just poor reasoning, or worse, blatant prejudice. The Jews are actually a perfect example. If you research the history of the Jewish people in every land where they settled in Diaspora, you will find a pattern of external factors that gave rise to scapegoating and "genetic" stereotyping. So, too, with any other minority.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I don't agree with the conclusions either. There are some things not being looked at.

Among them,

1) Reverse Great Migration
2) Rural vs Urban
3) Soft on crime vs hard on crime

One thing not taken into consideration is that there has been a migration of middle class Blacks to the South, particularly to states like Georgia and North Carolina. This migration might account for a lower incarceration rate.

Another factor is rural vs urban. Mississippi and Alabama have large numbers of Blacks living in rural areas. Mississippi especially. Same goes for Georgia. If anyone understands the geography of prison, prisons often draw from the cities, especially Black prisoners. Mississippi has more people in rural areas than urban areas.
Contrast this with Wisconsin, where a large part of the population lives around the Milwaukee metro area and the Madison metro area. 7 out of 10 Blacks in Wisconsin live in Milwaukee. Milwaukee's Black population is also beset with high levels of poverty, unemployment, and alot of fatherless homes. Chicago's gangs made alot of headway in Milwaukee because of this. Alot of prisons draw from Milwaukee, and probably Racine, Madison, and Kenosha as well.

And then the soft on crime theme. Take Maryland. Criminals from DC have frequently committed crimes in Maryland rather than Virginia. Maryland has a lower than average Black incarceration rate(the 2nd lowest in the nation), vs Virginia, which is slightly above the national average. Criminals prefer doing their dirt in Maryland, which is relatively softer in crime. Massachusetts has been relatively softer on crime than many states, although this is changing. Contrast this with Texas, which is known to be very heavy on incarceration and the death penalty.

Oh yes -- rural -- I didn't consider that but that one is important. Blacks that migrated north, migrated to the big cities for the most part, those who stayed in the south often were the sharecroppers -- with land and rural values.

Rural poverty is different than urban poverty -- there are more wide open spaces, the fresh air, the beauty of green fields and woods. Rural areas offer more day labor kind of work which can get someone by when they don't have a formal job. 40 acres and a mule will mean poverty but also land ownership.

[malamute]

[quote=ukrkoz;31981467]Sure. This is mostly because of human nature.
Now, here's the thing. Historically speaking, there are 2 things you likely to agree with.
1. Races and ethnicity DO have particular traits. As a WHOLE. Agreed?


I don't agree -- because compare Detroit with Barbados and you'll see some striking differences. Literacy rates in Barbados are very high, crime isn't.

Ethnicity may mean particular traits but American blacks have a lot more mixed ethnicity than many realize. Ethnicity traits are more about culture, a 5th generation American of Irish or German ancestry may have almost nothing in common with someone living in Ireland or Germany.

[jerseygal4u]

From stats I look at,and I'm not trying to be racist or anything,but southern states have higher crime rates among blacks than the North and West.

What I'm trying to say is that in the areas with stronger ties to racism,there are also more crimes involving blacks.

[L'Artiste]

Originally Posted by fairlaker

If you have to assure us that it isn't a troll thread, there is every reason to suspect that it is. One look at the asinine blog you cite provides quick confirmation.

Green is the real deal. He's no troll. Really nice guy

[green_mariner]

The whole Celtic argument falls apart once you start comparing county-by-county data for ethnic concentration, especially West of the Mississippi. I just spent some time doing this after reading the blog post...in many states with lower incarceration rates for Black people on the map the author provided, Blacks and people of Celtic descent aren't concentrated in the same locations. In some cases, they barely overlap at all.

Methinks this blogger is probably of Celtic descent, engaging in silly stereotypes that benefit his own POV from all angles.

From what I've read, he isn't of Celtic descent. Aside from that, that is something of note. Alot of places with people of Celtic descent, there aren't large numbers of Blacks living there. Consider Rhode Island. There is a large population of people who are a Celtic descent, mostly Irish. Low Black imprisonment rate. However, Connecticut is home to a larger Irish population. if you include Scottish and Scotch-Irish populations, Connecticut has a larger population of people who are of Celtic descent. CT has a much higher Black imprisonment rates. The Black to White ratio of incarceration is 12, the 4th highest in the nation.

And then take Hawaii, the lowest Black imprisonment rate in the nation. Very few White people in Hawaii compared to most states, and the largest ancestry for Whites in Hawaii is German.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by malamute

Oh yes -- rural -- I didn't consider that but that one is important. Blacks that migrated north, migrated to the big cities for the most part, those who stayed in the south often were the sharecroppers -- with land and rural values.

Rural poverty is different than urban poverty -- there are more wide open spaces, the fresh air, the beauty of green fields and woods. Rural areas offer more day labor kind of work which can get someone by when they don't have a formal job. 40 acres and a mule will mean poverty but also land ownership.

A professor of mine once said that when people in the rural areas starve, they die, but when people in urban areas starve, they die. It would not surprise me as much.

One can tell that the article was heavily biased, and not giving much thought to other factors.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by L'Artiste

Green is the real deal. He's no troll. Really nice guy

I'm just trying to be myself, and have a civilized discussion.