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Old 08-25-2016, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Finally the house is done and we are in Port St. Lucie!
3,488 posts, read 1,789,032 times
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When all else fails and we cannot find words to console, because really there are no words that will, I fall back on what I feel the most at the time: I'm sorry you are going through this. I'm here if you just need to vent, talk or cry.
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Old 08-25-2016, 04:38 PM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,904,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
I find starting a post with...."SIGH"......to be very condescending .


Perhaps if you rode a shorter horse no one would have to tell you to .." get off your high horse "
Wow. That's pretty hateful. Surprised to see that here.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:54 PM
 
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I didn't like the way Lawrence expounded in his essay, but I agree that "death happening for a reason" is one of those trite and hurtful things that people say because they don't know what else to say. Also included in that list is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" (as if God made your loved one die in order to see how much you could take) and "You shouldn't be sad because he's in a better place" and "I know just how you feel - my sister in law's cousin died last year." I know it just comes from people wanting to say SOMETHING and not having the sensitivity to just say "I'm sorry." I think the "happened for a reason" mantra is repeated because people don't want to think that life is random. But I think that there are accidents that really have no meaning, that people make mistakes years ago that have unpredictable consequences for people they don't know, years later, and that we do not live predestined lives. We want to blame all bad things on someone, but that is not always possible. Many times there is no responsible party (not even God.)
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:19 PM
 
2,265 posts, read 1,215,966 times
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Well, in reality, everything DOES happen for a reason... it just may not be a reason that is easy to accept.

I'm not talking about God, or any kind of "destined" sequence of events, but when things happen, there IS a reason, you just don't always know what it is, and it's human nature to try to internalize external actions to apply the actions/results to ourselves.

Example, someone is coming home from work after working late and they get T-boned by a drunk driver who ran a red light, leading to the first person being killed or paralyzed for life. What is the reason they are in that state now? Was it because they were working late, which is why they were crossing that street at that moment in time instead of earlier like usual? Or is the reason external... the drunk driver chose to drink too many and get in their car? A combination of the two?

Everything DOES happen for a reason, it's just that it's a fallacy to assume that it's a reason that has anything to do with us.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:45 PM
 
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Yes, if you take the phrase very literally. But I think the underpinning of the "everything happens for a reason" is really "God caused this to happen in the furtherance of His own purpose, even if we don't understand it." If you look at it from that viewpoint, then the rest of the discussion follows.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
8,988 posts, read 7,076,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
Don't mind this guy...bitter ex-military guy whose glory days have LONG passed so he feels the need to push around people who have lost loved ones in an internet forum. Takes all kinds, as they say! The only death he probably has dealt with is the death of his integrity many moons ago!
1. I don't remember ever having any "glory days". I'm not even sure how to define the term.
2. My maternal grandparents had 9 children.They are all dead now. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, mother, many cousins, all dead. Add to that step-grandparents, stepfather, and many of the people I went to school with, and some time in Vietnam in 1966, and, yes, I CERTAINLY HAVE dealt with death!

I will soon achieve my 75th birthday. I have seen a lot of death in those years, both much-loved people and greatly loved pets.
I learned long ago to NOT dwell on those deaths, to get over the grief and get on with life.

bluemonday, to state my opinion of you and your quoted post would quite likely violate the C-D TOS, so I will make no further comment
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:58 PM
 
4,316 posts, read 2,148,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robino1 View Post
When all else fails and we cannot find words to console, because really there are no words that will, I fall back on what I feel the most at the time: I'm sorry you are going through this. I'm here if you just need to vent, talk or cry.
One of the best condolences at my wife's wake was when my neighbor and his wife came thru the line and he firmly shook my hand, looked me in the eyes, and softly said my name .


Sometimes saying nothing is better than just uttering phrases.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,836 posts, read 51,286,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
Even though I've experienced great loss and sorrow, I've never ventured into this forum. I found this recently and many of you may already be familiar with Tim Lawrence and his work so I apologize if this has been posted before.

This is a very important piece and something I will reread several times. The comments are interesting as well.
Everything Doesn't Happen For A Reason
Bear with me. For a moment, I need to take the context of the cited article and change it into something less charged and more innocuous. I'm going to replace death with something I just experienced. I was carrying a large branch, tripped and fell down an embankment and fractured a vertebrae. Use that experience as a metaphor for experiencing the death of a loved one.

Taking the title line, "did it happen for a reason?" Yes, it probably did transpire that way for a number of reasons. I am older, the branch had been weak, there was a staub or rock in a spot I didn't see. Was it a lesson to be more careful? Perhaps. Was it a lesson to move to a high rise condo? Perhaps. Was it a sign from Oden that I hadn't been drinking enough mead and he was upset? Perhaps.

In point of fact, I am not particularly interested in dealing with the reasons and causes and lessons right now. I have had to deal with the immediate situation.

When I fell, and finished falling, I stopped, took a quick inventory of scratches and bruises and pain, and decided that I could move enough to extricate myself and not become a soil amendment over the next weeks. I was stunned and a lot of the pain had not yet set in, but I knew there was going to be some.

I took care of my immediate needs, took an aspirin to limit inflammation and tried to get into a supportive situation with phone, food, water, and pain reliever and stuff for distraction.

I later went to a chiropractor, who noted the fractured vertebrae on an X-ray and sent me to a doctor out of concern. The doctor, out of concern, prescribed muscle relaxants and wanted to prescribe an opiate pain medication, which I refused in favor of ibuprophin, and an MRI, which I could not do because of claustrophobia in the older machine.

The friends and acquaintances I told all expressed concern and sympathetic words and some offered help.

Ultimately, I have had to simply live out the experience. The chiropractor couldn't, the doctor couldn't, my friends couldn't, my acquaintances couldn't. I has been MY experience alone. Kind words have been a support, and much appreciated, but it is still my experience.

I discovered that there were days and nights I was cramping every few minutes with intense pain.
I discovered that getting up was hard and painful.
I discovered that rather that the medications helping me, they were masking enough of the pain that I was re-injuring myself. Only by stopping them and acknowledging and experiencing the honest pain have I been able to begin to feel better, because when I over-do, I know immediately.

Did I feel any anger towards those who offered misplaced advice or sympathy? Why on earth would I be so self-centered and hateful to do that? I recognized some of it as un-helpful and some as not very knowledgeable, but so what? It came from good hearts.

Did I think at times the pain would never end? Yes, and I still have concerns that some of it might continue. It comes with the territory.

Did I blame G*d or need to find a greater lesson? Nah. neither of those affects my experience.

Go back through and put the death of a loved one in place of falling and fracturing a vertebrae. The experience of a close death is much more intense, the pain more emotional than physical, but the basic form still follows:
Event, shock and pain, recognition, slow healing, the sometimes good, sometimes bad advice and wishes of professionals, friends, and others, and living out the experience.

No need to write angry words about whether things happen for a reason or not. No need to roil over poorly chosen words. Every need to show compassion to self and to others.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:15 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 8,774,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katana49 View Post
Well, in reality, everything DOES happen for a reason... it just may not be a reason that is easy to accept.

I'm not talking about God, or any kind of "destined" sequence of events, but when things happen, there IS a reason, you just don't always know what it is, and it's human nature to try to internalize external actions to apply the actions/results to ourselves.

Example, someone is coming home from work after working late and they get T-boned by a drunk driver who ran a red light, leading to the first person being killed or paralyzed for life. What is the reason they are in that state now? Was it because they were working late, which is why they were crossing that street at that moment in time instead of earlier like usual? Or is the reason external... the drunk driver chose to drink too many and get in their car? A combination of the two?

Everything DOES happen for a reason, it's just that it's a fallacy to assume that it's a reason that has anything to do with us.
What you're saying makes sense, but it works better if we modify the statement to "everything has a cause." We shouldn't confuse "reason" with "cause." Everything has a physical cause, but that is not the same as everything happening "for a reason." The latter implies some hidden, underlying design.
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:12 AM
 
5,146 posts, read 2,992,030 times
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I love it Clark Fork Fantast, Mr. Rational. Everything has a cause. And if I may add - everything has an effect. To me that's the reason that I have to find.


Just like we define our own reasons for living we define our own outcomes of loss. There will be an outcome for my losses and, positive or negative, I will create that.


In spite of the antagonism here it's been interesting reading because we are all so different in our approaches to loss. It depends on our experience, ability, how fast we process emotions, even our willingness to allow emotional pain to enter our consciousness.


I try to remember that everyone who tries to comfort is doing so out of a caring motive and cut the inept a little slack. But my favorite ones are just those who show up and do what I can't do at the time. All the rest is just words heard through a haze of shock.
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