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I have a sneaking suspicion everybody here, including the ACLU clowns that brought up this legalese distinction, knows EXACTLY what is meant by illegal immigrant, and that "undocumented worker" is an obfuscation and an attempt to blur the lines between legal citizens/immigrants, and illegals.
I am a legal US citizen, but if I work somewhere without presenting papers (and unfortunately that is very possible, because they are not allowed to ask me about my immigration status which they should be REQUIRED TO DO) I may also semantically be called generic "undocumented worker" (i.e. non criminal by definition), which is completely semantically and legally different than someone who completely disrespected the US entry laws and run across the border (often several times!), bought a drivers license and SSN under the table and works for cash to hide his/her identity from the IRS... (i.e. a criminal by the same definition)
The aclu clowns are just trying to make the mass deportations of these border jumping criminals impossible, because if their distinction is accepted, a court would have to get into useless semantics for each illegal alien.
The solution from the above follows -
1. make the south border air-tight; only legal crossings...
2. to check for those that still sneak in, make every single employer have run immigration and INS checks on every employee and make penalties for non-conformance PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE to BOTH the emploer and the illigalo employee (e-Verify?) Like they already to for felons.
I.e. enforce that there are only Documented Workers, i.e. legal, law abiding citizens or legal immigrants/visitors (work allowed temp workers PHDs/students/GreenCard holders/etc..)
*edit: and it shouldn't be just the employer who should be REQUIRED to do the checking, but also landlords, bankers and any other business outlet that has a chance of an illegal being detected and removed. I know it's less than the average US citizens/legal immigrants are used to, but this is a serious problem into the dozens of millions and I think everyone law abiding would be on board for a minor inconvenience which doesn't really infringe personal freedoms. And 'Sanctuary' cities would also have to go as well...
Last edited by wellyouknow; 11-09-2010 at 08:22 PM..
Classic obfuscation. The bottom line: We have a LEGAL immigration process. Foreigners who fail to comply with said process are ILLEGAL, and subject to deportation.
Uh, so? The U.S. had LEGAL segregation, and non-whites who failed to comply with said process were ILLEGAL, and subject to prosecution. It remained ethically wrong. Your legal fetishism is logically fallacious, nothing more.
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Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm
Well, to be honest, I don't care what you think...LOL...
LOL, I'm afraid you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't waste time droning on defending a point you've already lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm
Read the US Code and how that document uses the term "alien" when speaking of those persons who have offended the code with regards to entering the country illegally.
That is how I would expect the terms alien and illegal (illegally entering) to be understood. OK?
An "alien," referring back to the legal premise that you mentioned, is any non-citizen resident of a country. However, it is not an entirely value-neutral term, since it's used to imply a permanent foreign status of its subject, regardless of his or her degree of assimilation to surrounding culture and community. The term "illegal immigrant" is inapplicable when applied to undocumented residents that overstayed visas because their immigration was not illegal. Get it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit
And this thread is what's wrong with this country, getting wrapped around the axle with lawyer-speak rather than common sense.
What you declare common sense is common? I declare my viewpoint common sense; how's that? Where is your refutation of my comments?
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Originally Posted by plwhit
Someone who crosses the US border without permission is an illegal alien.
Oooh, an assertion without supporting arguments! Well, this one's pretty well wrapped up now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit
When the illegal aliens became a flood it should have been called an invasion and the military should have been deployed with live ammunition to stop it.
The illegal aliens became a flood around the time of 1492. That said, very few people (essentially only a small assortment of white supremacists and delusional jingoists) are interested in these proposed genocidal policies.
[quote=Agnapostate;16596771]Uh, so? The U.S. had LEGAL segregation, and non-whites who failed to comply with said process were ILLEGAL, and subject to prosecution. It remained ethically wrong. Your legal fetishism is logically fallacious, nothing more.
No one is denying that segragation of black "Americans" was morally wrong along with the laws that supported it but that has nothing to do with our country's right to have and to enforce immgration laws against foreigner invaders. Illegals are not citizens of this country and have no right to be here unlike black Americans who did.
The illegal aliens became a flood around the time of 1492. That said, very few people (essentially only a small assortment of white supremacists and delusional jingoists) are interested in these proposed genocidal policies.
There were no immigration laws back in 1492. What genocidal policies are being proposed today?
Yes, that's the second time you've repeated that statement, and you've not provided a justification or hint that it's anything other than a personal (and misleading) linguistic preference either time. A person who migrates is an immigrant, regardless of legal status. The adjective modifier can shed light on that legal status.
Migration implies permanent migration. An illegal alien is not an immigrant because he can be asked to leave at any time for violation of American migration laws. Legal status matters enormously. An illegal alien has no right to stay. A legal immigrant does.
Lumping law abiding legal immigrants and law breaking illegal aliens in the same category is highly insulting to legal immigrants.
Uh, so? The U.S. had LEGAL segregation, and non-whites who failed to comply with said process were ILLEGAL, and subject to prosecution. It remained ethically wrong. Your legal fetishism is logically fallacious, nothing more.
And, people fought and died to change those laws. If you disagree with our current immigration policies, I suggest you do likewise. That is, if you’re a citizen. Otherwise, your “opinion” is irrelevant.
I believe in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty. Thus only those "undocumented workers" who have been tried and convicted can be considered "illegal aliens." It's all about the Constitution, not pro-amnesty, or PC.
So if someone breaks into your house, shoots someone and leaves, you wait until the jury convicts them 15 years later to be angry? IF and IF they are caught? Good luck.
LOL, I'm afraid you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't waste time droning on defending a point you've already lost.
Of course I care what you think. Did you notice the "LOL and "? That is a sign of friendly personal engagement, albeit coming after sarcastic words. Had I used the icon " " that would not be friendly but rather insulting sarcasm. The point was to engage your thoughts and to get a response. It worked, trust me...LOL
Quote:
An "alien," referring back to the legal premise that you mentioned, is any non-citizen resident of a country. However, it is not an entirely value-neutral term, since it's used to imply a permanent foreign status of its subject, regardless of his or her degree of assimilation to surrounding culture and community. The term "illegal immigrant" is inapplicable when applied to undocumented residents that overstayed visas because their immigration was not illegal. Get it?
Those arguments are all fine and well, but they really do not give us any common ground to stand on. However, there is a document that does. That document, concerning illegal aliens, is the US Code. That document defines how the terms "Alien" and "illegally entering" are used. That's the point I'm trying to get across. BTW, I do agree with you that "illegal immigrant" is not a correct term to use when speaking of "illegal aliens".
Quote:
The illegal aliens became a flood around the time of 1492. That said, very few people (essentially only a small assortment of white supremacists and delusional jingoists) are interested in these proposed genocidal policies.
All murder and genocide is wrong, regardless of who does it. Be it white, brown, black, red or yellow. However, what one person did in 1492 is not my sin or responsibility here in 2010. Actually, why only go back to 1492? I'm still upset about what happened in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1-8)...LOL That's where it all started.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 11-10-2010 at 10:57 AM..
Reason: typo
LOL No, they are definitely an illegal immigrant. They are here from another country illegally, therefore, they are an illegal immigrant. Sometimes, I use the term "undocumented immigrant" or "undocumented worker" when talking about illegal immigration from a legal perspective or when trying to emphasis the lack of documentation of an immigrant and how they did not go through the process. I must admit, sometimes I don't like to say "Illegal Immigrant" because I know all the pro-illegal immigration people get their panties in a bunch and I want them to focus on what I am saying and not get their feelings hurt because I called their little buddies illegal. They start preaching at you about how we all are illegal (how that is true when I am Black, Native and European, I don't know) and start getting super-hippy about borders and stuff. Haha.
They need to give this one up, I won't stop using illegal immigrant because it is true. They just hate hearing that because it makes them feel bad and it makes them remember that it is true that they are illegal here. Also, "illegal" doesn't just apply to them working, they are residing here illegally and on the land illegally.
ALSO ... at the same time, I never understood the big deal about the usage of those terms. I think "illegal immigrant" is more of a psychological and social thing. I mean, we ALL know what we are talking about, but I do think introducing "undocumented workers" does make it seem that illegal immigrants are doing less damage socially than what they really are. However, "undocumented worker" should make some people pretty pissed knowing that someone is working here and shouldn't be while someone who legally can work here can't get a job. But, I think there is this tug-of-war with the terms. We can't get caught up in stuff like that when there are legalities, facts and other real consequences of illegal immigration that can support what we are saying.
I don't think I will ever say "undocumented immigration." Maybe I have though, can't remember.
LOL No, they are definitely an illegal immigrant. They are here from another country illegally, therefore, they are an illegal immigrant. Sometimes, I use the term "undocumented immigrant" or "undocumented worker" when talking about illegal immigration from a legal perspective or when trying to emphasis the lack of documentation of an immigrant and how they did not go through the process. I must admit, sometimes I don't like to say "Illegal Immigrant" because I know all the pro-illegal immigration people get their panties in a bunch and I want them to focus on what I am saying and not get their feelings hurt because I called their little buddies illegal. They start preaching at you about how we all are illegal (how that is true when I am Black, Native and European, I don't know) and start getting super-hippy about borders and stuff. Haha.
They need to give this one up, I won't stop using illegal immigrant because it is true. They just hate hearing that because it makes them feel bad and it makes them remember that it is true that they are illegal here. Also, "illegal" doesn't just apply to them working, they are residing here illegally and on the land illegally.
ALSO ... at the same time, I never understood the big deal about the usage of those terms. I think "illegal immigrant" is more of a psychological and social thing. I mean, we ALL know what we are talking about, but I do think introducing "undocumented workers" does make it seem that illegal immigrants are doing less damage socially than what they really are. However, "undocumented worker" should make some people pretty pissed knowing that someone is working here and shouldn't be while someone who legally can work here can't get a job. But, I think there is this tug-of-war with the terms. We can't get caught up in stuff like that when there are legalities, facts and other real consequences of illegal immigration that can support what we are saying.
I don't think I will ever say "undocumented immigration." Maybe I have though, can't remember.
what does it really mater. I write Illegal alien all the time, I use undoc. worker to distinguish between one here for work and a mom of three kids.
Undocumented immigration makes no sence. a person can be undocumented...with out documentation, but how can immigration be undocumented?
say what you feel comfortable in saying. if it boils your chaps to have someone say undocumented what can be done?...another law?
what does it really mater. I write Illegal alien all the time, I use undoc. worker to distinguish between one here for work and a mom of three kids.
Undocumented immigration makes no sence. a person can be undocumented...with out documentation, but how can immigration be undocumented?
say what you feel comfortable in saying. if it boils your chaps to have someone say undocumented what can be done?...another law?
What? Once again, you post some silly response and again unrelated to what a person said. And how are you going to say a worker and a "mom of three kids" who is illegally here are different?
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" that would not be friendly but rather insulting sarcasm. The point was to engage your thoughts and to get a response. It worked, trust me...LOL
