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i'm trying to figure out why all these people who claim to come here for "a better life" won't learn the language that would provide them access to opportunities to advance beyond living in 3rd world conditions on american soil.
an example (one of many i could cite): the (illegal) mexican woman who shampoos hair and sweeps the floor at the hair salon i patronize has an american-born child who is 10 or 11 years old, so i know she has been in the country at least that long. she is surrounded by native and second-language english speakers all day at work, for the last five years at least, yet she cannot communicate in english beyond asking me if the water is too hot and saying "thank you" for her tips. she speaks only to her single spanish-speaking co-worker, and smiles and gestures at everyone else. she's probably no more than thirty years old (i.e., young enough to do many things with her life), but she won't learn to speak english, despite having more opportunity to practice than most in her position because she works in an english-speaking environment. (she could even pick up some armenian and farsi in that place were she so inclined.)
i simply cannot understand why someone would risk life and limb to enter this country illegally "for a better life," and more than a decade later still not be able to speak the language, and not even engage in the process of learning. aren't there floors to sweep in mexico?
Well, here's the thing. New Mexico has only been a state since 1912, and has only been a part of US holdings since 1848 (most of it) and 1853 (Southern NM in the Gadsen Purchase). Therefore, if there are families there who have been there for hundreds of years.... is it really for us to tell them to learn English? I mean... clearly the place has changed around them, and Spanish has been the language of the place for longer than English has. Also, Spanish has basically been accepted in NM for years and years.
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I agree with many of your points. Interestingly, New Mexico was the scene in the 1960's of a tiny armed "rebellion" of sorts by native New Mexican activist Reies Tijerina, who led a group of Hispanic property owners who felt their traditional rights were being trampled upon by the US Government. Several people were shot, and an attempt was made to "kidnap" the D.A. (at Tierra Amarilla)- The National Guard became involved, and while the suspects were being sought, some of THEIR family members were held "hostage" by the government.
This wasn't truly a "linguistic" conflict, but it could certainly be said to have linguistic complications. As you said, Spanish is the historic language of New Mexico and Southern Colorado, true enough. And nothing should be done to discourage its use. However, to the extent that this area is now part of the USA, we should continue to emphasize the use of English as the "national" language---it's simply good business to be able to communicate within a nation.
(PS the overwhelming majority of the "original", old-time Hispanic population there is very much able to speak English. They are a group quite distinct from recent Hispanic immigrants)...
I notice the hispanic kids, who are mostly bi-lingual, frequently switch to spanish in my presence. I'm quick to point out that it is very rude and if they don't converse in my presence in english then they are not welcome in my company. They totally understand and respect my request.
It's as rude as whispering in someones presence.
i'm trying to figure out why all
an example (one of many i could cite): the (illegal) mexican woman who shampoos hair and sweeps the floor at the hair salon i patronize has an american-born child who is 10 or 11 years old, so i know she has been in the country at least that long. she is surrounded by native and second-language english speakers all day at work, for the last five years at least, yet she cannot communicate in english beyond asking me if the water is too hot and saying "thank you" for her tips. she speaks only to her single spanish-speaking co-worker, and smiles and gestures at everyone else. she's probably no more than thirty years old (i.e., young enough to do many things with her life), but she won't learn to speak english, despite having more opportunity to practice than most in her position because she works in an english-speaking environment. (she could even pick up some armenian and farsi in that place were she so inclined.)
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It's entirely possible this lady is just embarrassed--it could be she does understand English to an extent, but has been ridiculed for her accent. I personally know many people like this. She may speak English to you in private, but not in front of a "group".
ALSO--and quite important--the process of learning a foreign language (particularly as an adult) is not fully understood--and some people can "pick it up" rapidly, with little or no accent. Others, of equal intelligence, can barely manage even after years, and never are able to lose their thick accent.
Remember also that English is considered a rather difficult language. Even we English speakers have many jokes and puns illustrating "our" language's very complicated "rules"---or LACK of rules. Every word, it seems, requires one to learn a differnt pronunciation. It's far more complicated in this respect than many other languages, including Spanish.
It's entirely possible this lady is just embarrassed--it could be she does understand English to an extent, but has been ridiculed for her accent. I personally know many people like this. She may speak English to you in private, but not in front of a "group".
ALSO--and quite important--the process of learning a foreign language (particularly as an adult) is not fully understood--and some people can "pick it up" rapidly, with little or no accent. Others, of equal intelligence, can barely manage even after years, and never are able to lose their thick accent.
Remember also that English is considered a rather difficult language. Even we English speakers have many jokes and puns illustrating "our" language's very complicated "rules"---or LACK of rules. Every word, it seems, requires one to learn a differnt pronunciation. It's far more complicated in this respect than many other languages, including Spanish.
I agree with this entirely. A lot of people who understand English have great difficulty speaking it because they are afraid of being ridiculed. They don't like being corrected in front of others and they find it embarrassing to speak it because they aren't sure that what they are saying is proper English.
I used to live in a building with people who spoke many different languages. Only a few of us were native English speakers and one of them was a person from New Orleans (who spoke with a really strong Louisianna accent). His English sounded very little like my English. I had no problems understanding it, but I grew up in the South. To anyone else, it would have sounded like a foreign language.
I really have to wonder where you live because you keep posting all kinds of myths and fables about illegals and the immigration.
In LA that have had to print voter ballots into 29 different languages and that would be because so many REFUSE to learn English, first or third generation. I know this for an absolute fact because of family living there. I also have family living in New Mexico and some Mexican families have lived in that stat6e for well into hundreds of years. Some of those same families REFUSE to speak or learn English and why should they? They are catered to in Spanish. I can show you lots of enclaves of Spanish speaking people and they have no desire to learn English and they will tell you as much. hey have flately told me and members of my family that they know that they don't ever have to learn to speak English because our country caters to them in Spanish. They are right of course and then we have people pass around the out and out fables and myths that they learn how to speak English. The fact is that if they did then Spanish language television and radio would not need to be.
I am also sick and tired of people who keep saying that we are behind the curve when it comes to people speaking other languahes. In the first place plenty people speak different languages in this country. They don't here because we speak English, in case you haven't nhoticed. Another thing, the ones doing the most bit**ing about us supposedly being so monolingual are themselves monolingual. I am speaking about the Spanish speaking people who rant and rave about us when they in fact, can barely speak Spanish themselves and certainly don't and can't speak other languages themselves.
to add to the point in your last paragraph: one reason that many people throughout the world can speak english in addition to another language is that english is the language of instruction in schools in much of the former british empire. people born in these places today learn english in school as a matter of course; they do not go out of their way to study english or any other second language because they value bilingualism so much more than we americans. in fact, i have spoken to people from african nations who grew up resentful of having to learn and speak english (or french, in some cases) in school. of course, their rotten colonial education stands them in good stead today because they can immigrate to the UK, the US, or canada and compete for any job for which they are qualified because they already speak the language OF ACCESS, in many cases better than the native-born.
another reason is the longstanding tradition of people crossing borders to earn a living when political circumstances allowed freedom of movement. people learned second and third languages because they worked and married across national boundaries, and their offspring learned the native tongues of both parents, and possibly another language in school.
there are social, economic, and geopolitical reasons why africans, asians and europeans tend to be bilingual in greater numbers than americans, not the least of which is that we live in a former british colony that for more than two hundred years has been a self-sustaining nation, spanning the width of a continent, and as individuals, our survival is not dependent upon being able to speak another language so we can make a living in a foreign land-- at least not yet!
i, too, resent the implication that americans are somehow intellectually inferior because the vast majority of us do not NEED to speak another language, and therefore do not. however, if the day ever comes when i have to sneak into mexico and wash dishes at a cancun resort in order to make a living, i'll be sure to brush up on my rusty high-school spanish. fair is fair.
I took 3 posts to turn it into a Bush thread. I'll be glad when he's out of office just to keep threads on topic.
At least they speak English on the FNC or the things would go off on that tangent.
Agreed. I would not want to it forced on anyone by the gov't. The desire to succeed in the U.S. would be enough to make someone want to learn.
and it only took two posts to mention Mexico or Mexicans,as when people discuss the language or immigration issue they think it's all about Mexicans.
Stay a certain amount of time in south Florida and you'll realize that these issues are beyond just Mexicans,that people from all over south and central America and the carribean are coming without restraint to America.
I'll say it again,many people I knew in Miami with latin heritage spoke english that have been born here..I went to Texas twice this year and spent weeks in San Antonio which is almost entirely Mexican and everybody I met was nice and spoke english.
I don't mind what language people speak,as long as they learn english,most people do learn it.But there has to be a govern on how many people immigrate here at a time so people can assimulate.People are not assimulating in Miami anymore because so many so fast have come here that there is no need to speak english.As they stay here they may learn it.
But just remember that the issue of Mexico is not the sole issue of english or immigration.Maybe the people I met are different then what you are use to but the Mexican heritage people I met there were nice and generally pro American.
When I use to work in Miami everyday I had customers who didn't speak english and gave me a surprised look when I replied "yo no habla espanol".
In San Antonio I was the one who gave a surprised look when everyone replied back to me in english.
Who wants to live and work in the us should be able to speak and understand english. And this is especially for our hispanic and asian population.
What really makes me laugh is when I meet Asian shopkeepers who speak Spanish! I have a sneaky suspicion that Spanish is much easier to learn than English.
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobb
Who wants to live and work in the us should be able to speak and understand english. And this is especially for our hispanic and asian population.
yea i work in banks with huge spainsh speaking populations i can't tell you how many times i have to either i have to talk to them like a special education teacher, tellin them where to sign and put this on the slip and repeat myself 10 times or tell them to wait for a spainsh speaking teller. They arent exactly the nicest folks to serve either.
I think its downright disrespectful to ask someone to speak your language when you are in their country!!!!
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