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I am puertorrican and English fluent since elementary school and almost everyone here in PR for the most part is. English has been for many years our second language and politicians even have tried to make it the official language of the island. It gets my attention how many americans doesn't even have the slightest idea that we are born american citizens (though I was born in New York), this island is not a state but we are a free associated state, and therefore part of the United States of America. Americans don't know this fact. The island is about to make a referendum votation to see how many of us puertorricans want the island to become a state.
Though I respect and like your culture I feel the rascism when I visit the states. Maybe that's not the word and I don't want to generalized, not everyone is the same but yes you feel the difference.
When americans come to Puerto Rico, I can assure you 90% of them don't speak spanish and we try our best to make them feel fine and at home and speak their language so they can understand us. By this I am not saying you have to speak spanish when we visit your country. I agree everyone must adapt theirselves to the country the live in and do their best to fit there if they want to live there.
I don't know many mexicans and currently don't live in the states but I agree they should do their best to lear English and to respect the culture they chose to live in.
I am puertorrican and English fluent since elementary school and almost everyone here in PR for the most part is. English has been for many years our second language and politicians even have tried to make it the official language of the island. It gets my attention how many americans doesn't even have the slightest idea that we are born american citizens (though I was born in New York), this island is not a state but we are a free associated state, and therefore part of the United States of America. Americans don't know this fact. The island is about to make a referendum votation to see how many of us puertorricans want the island to become a state.
Though I respect and like your culture I feel the rascism when I visit the states. Maybe that's not the word and I don't want to generalized, not everyone is the same but yes you feel the difference.
When americans come to Puerto Rico, I can assure you 90% of them don't speak spanish and we try our best to make them feel fine and at home and speak their language so they can understand us. By this I am not saying you have to speak spanish when we visit your country. I agree everyone must adapt theirselves to the country the live in and do their best to fit there if they want to live there.
I don't know many mexicans and currently don't live in the states but I agree they should do their best to lear English and to respect the culture they chose to live in.
It is all about Expectation. I have gone to Germany and I happen to know the language. I dont expect them to speak to me in English, if they do great, if not no problem, not my country. The couple times I went to mexico, I spoke what spanish I knew, but the resorts did have english speakers there, but many of the towns people didnt, again perfectly fine. If I lived in any one of these countries, it would be my priority to become familiar with their ways and culture and learn their language. It is called respect. If I thought that the illegals respected us and America and truely wanted to be citizens i may feel differently, but everything I have seen says otherwise. And I am sorry you have felt racism, I treat everyone with respect until they disrespect me or my country.
The preceding few posts show lots of frustration---and I agree. My big thing has always been "culture", not race. Illegal immigration and the politically-correct method of downplaying it is overwhelming and discouraging any desire, in fact any possibility, that these new immigrants can assimilate in any timely fashion, whether they want to or not.
The word "gringo", and similar ones, are NOT considered offensive in Mexico. The problem you're addressing here is that this is NOT Mexico, you do not live in Mexico, and where you DO live, the words ARE offensive. And that is nothing more nor less than a difference in culture. In fact, Mexican society freely uses all sorts of "nicknames" between friends and strangers that would be considered "fightin' words" here in the USA.
Look for more of this as we enter our new multicultural future. All cultures can, and do, "clash" with each other on numerous levels--that's the essence of why they're "different" in the first place. It's my belief that no nation can successfully exist if its aims are to be "multicultural", and its precisely these minor day-to-day differences that make this dream impossible. The residents of Yugoslavia--all nice enough folks in their own right-- once "got on each others' nerves" in many ways---and what happened there is now history.
Bring in the immigrants, by all means---that's what we're all about. And when they get here, INSIST that they show us the respect of adopting our culture---it's the reason they're able to come here, after all.
I am puertorrican and English fluent since elementary school and almost everyone here in PR for the most part is. English has been for many years our second language and politicians even have tried to make it the official language of the island. It gets my attention how many americans doesn't even have the slightest idea that we are born american citizens (though I was born in New York), this island is not a state but we are a free associated state, and therefore part of the United States of America. Americans don't know this fact. The island is about to make a referendum votation to see how many of us puertorricans want the island to become a state.
Though I respect and like your culture I feel the rascism when I visit the states. Maybe that's not the word and I don't want to generalized, not everyone is the same but yes you feel the difference.
When americans come to Puerto Rico, I can assure you 90% of them don't speak spanish and we try our best to make them feel fine and at home and speak their language so they can understand us. By this I am not saying you have to speak spanish when we visit your country. I agree everyone must adapt theirselves to the country the live in and do their best to fit there if they want to live there.
I don't know many mexicans and currently don't live in the states but I agree they should do their best to lear English and to respect the culture they chose to live in.
Caribbeanppl, my last post wasn't directed at you---Puerto Rico is a rather unique example-as you said, it's not a state, but a "freely-associated Commonwealth" of the US. It is (as far as I know) the only place that fits this description.
Still, much of what you say does reflect a clash of cultures. As you know, there are (or have traditionally been) 3 main "schools of thought" in Puerto Rico on its standing re: the USA---and they are (1) Those who wish to become a part of the USA, as the 51st State...(2) Those who wish to separate and become an independent nation...and (3) those who wish to maintain the "status quo" as an "associated commonwealth"...
And the proponents of all of these positions recognize the importance of "culture" in feeling the way they do, and in criticizing the opposing views.
Interesting situation you have there,
BTW, I have traveled throughout "la Isla Encantada" and enjoyed it very much, though your "caribbean Spanish" is a little different from that in the US Southwest. (Actually, the English spoken in Massachusetts doesn't sound like "here", either ) Nice Island, beautiful scenery, warm people.....
Read this explanation of living with the Mexicans, worth a read.
The Plain Truth about Living in Mexico (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Plain-Truth-about-Living-in-Mexico&id=289280 - broken link)
Famenity ~ Thank you for sharing that article. It was very interesting and most of it didn't surprise me at all. I live in an area where there is a very large population of Mexican immigrants, in fact we are the minority - although not if you go by the legal census numbers, and have experienced the same warm and welcoming feeling from our neighbors whom we have befriended. I'm not saying all Mexican immigrants are the same, I would never in a million years make that assertation, there are certainly those who treat us like we are trespassing in our own country, but I would say they are in the minority here.
However, when he described the few incidences when he encountered or heard about discrimination against "Gringos" he mentioned one account which really surprised me. The account of his friends experience - "There is a restaurant here that refused service in the upstairs dining room to a retired, district attorney friend of mine. The manager told him because he was a gringo he had to eat downstairs near the kitchen. He informed my friend the upstairs was for Mexican patrons only." Can you imagine the reaction if the same scenario played out here in reverse? I sure can.
The problem is that English is NOT our official language. I believe I remember when Jesse Helms tried to get a bill through to make English our official language and was just about laughed out of the senate. Our country would be a much better country if the bill had passed. (Hope my memory is working.) We are spending a lot of money that we would not have to spend if English were our official language. It gets to me a little when I buy a product and can't find the instructions in English as to how to use the product. What is rude to me is to have a customer come into a place and demand to know where the person is that speaks Spanish. I don't think that should be an expected thing in what used to be an English speaking nation.
Caribbeanppl, my last post wasn't directed at you---Puerto Rico is a rather unique example-as you said, it's not a state, but a "freely-associated Commonwealth" of the US. It is (as far as I know) the only place that fits this description.
Still, much of what you say does reflect a clash of cultures. As you know, there are (or have traditionally been) 3 main "schools of thought" in Puerto Rico on its standing re: the USA---and they are (1) Those who wish to become a part of the USA, as the 51st State...(2) Those who wish to separate and become an independent nation...and (3) those who wish to maintain the "status quo" as an "associated commonwealth"...
And the proponents of all of these positions recognize the importance of "culture" in feeling the way they do, and in criticizing the opposing views.
Interesting situation you have there,
BTW, I have traveled throughout "la Isla Encantada" and enjoyed it very much, though your "caribbean Spanish" is a little different from that in the US Southwest. (Actually, the English spoken in Massachusetts doesn't sound like "here", either ) Nice Island, beautiful scenery, warm people.....
Thank you, but no I didn't feel alluded by your last post. I just wanted to share my point of view. You seem to know very well what's going on in the island and I'm glad, not everyone knows about these issues. Good for you
Last edited by caribbeanppl; 09-13-2007 at 06:26 PM..
LOL. Nice rants. I can back up my "myths and fables" with lots of real data. Can you back up your quaint personal correspondence and observations with anything? Or should we just go by your "scientific observations".
with much respect...the law requires any immigrant that chooses to be an america citizen to learn the languge, english...among other things...the fact here is alot of immigrants have never become citizens nor wanted to.
yet, they have chosen to stay anyway, i say...learn english. it is rude, among other things not to.
whether here legally or illegally, their children and grandchildren are now citizens because of " birthright"...most have learned the language, yet kept using their native language as a means to communicate with their elders...out of respect for them... they have not lost their culture by learning the english language...and no-one should have to.
now , i live in new mexico, and i do see the fact that government is catering to one nationality, which , in my opinion is discrimination to the rest of the hundreds of nationalities immigrating legally here.
what is wrong with a nation being able to have one common language so it's citizens can communicate and understand each other?
A long time ago , in the late fifties, I and a friend went on a tour of the European continent together on a borrowed Gold flash BSA motorbike and Watsonian sidecar.
To cut a long story short we took a flat tyre that led to an accident that resulted in my pal a short stay in hospital with a head injury, two boys that turned out to be British motorcycle fanatics took us under their wing and I was fed and watered by their mother whilst my pal recovered in hospital, I have never forgotten the generosity of these Belgian people. In France we were shown fearless generosity too, praise all these 'foriegners'.
At this time in the UK I had not become aware of such displays of kindness at home, my respect for peoples abroad enjoying different cultures to my own took on a new understanding.
The other point about the word 'Gringo' is understandable from both sides, as macmeal says it's not offensive in Mexico, from this distance (on the other side of the pond) I would take a guess that the illegal quality of the immigrants might prevent them going to classes for an explanation of cultural differences, assuming such things are provided, and this could lead to the ignorance that is giving rise to Americans taking an unintended insult and maybe reciprocating and this building up into a new cultural split, shame really.
I hope this does not sound like preaching just throwing it up for ideas.
Well, here's the thing. New Mexico has only been a state since 1912, and has only been a part of US holdings since 1848 (most of it) and 1853 (Southern NM in the Gadsen Purchase). Therefore, if there are families there who have been there for hundreds of years.... is it really for us to tell them to learn English? I mean... clearly the place has changed around them, and Spanish has been the language of the place for longer than English has. Also, Spanish has basically been accepted in NM for years and years.
From Wikipedia:
Personally, for most parts of the country, I see no problem with 99% of government activity being conducted exclusively in English. Some documents intended to inform the public of health risks or some other form of danger are a clear exception. I'm a toss-up on voting, but literacy tests were tossed out after the Jim Crow era, so it'd be a tough sell to get those all in English.
As for personal conversations, any language suits me just fine. As for private businesses, any language they choose is fine by me. A restaurant shouldn't be required to have a Spanish menu (or an English menu, for that matter). The market will sort that out.
I also think we should all learn more languages. Most of all, I wish more Americans were more fluent in English. We use very few words and use them poorly. Language is a spectacular gift, and we squander it.
new mexico has been in existance for nearly one hundred years, and by the way a state of the union of america....why should we not have english as the common language? i'm not saying that english only in their home...but engliash as a common language...seems logical to me.
on the subject of americans learning other languages, if i were to visit spain, or mexico or, france, or germany, i would definetly learn the common language to communicate...and if i chose to live there and was welcomed, because i would ask for permission, i would absolutely learn the language fluently.
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) Nice Island, beautiful scenery, warm people.....
