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Old 02-06-2010, 01:58 PM
 
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While I can't condone violence, yours is a very perceptive post. Having been involved with illegals over some 4 decades now, I agree with lots of what you say. Whereas once illegals were a 'non-issue'...were happy to be HERE and not back HOME....whereas they once actually DID do the jobs the 'locals' didn't want...and whereas they were once QUITE well tolerated..the fact is that all this has changed...Americans have changed, and so have illegals...both in attitude, in outlook, in their expectations, and in their sheer overwhelming numbers.

When was it a "non-issue"? In the 1880s with the Exclusion act? What about the Know-Nothing Party? How about in the 1930s with operation *******? In the 1990s with various propositions made against them? The Walmart patriot doesn't want to rectify the past. Essentially, they view it in terms of nostalgia and view 1950s America with such longing.

Look, this is why the historical perspective is important. Walmart patriots don't want to take the TRUE historical perspective. They want to deal with American mythology that reinforces the idea of American exceptionalism.

Sometimes things that are 'OK' in reasonable numbers....at a certain time in history...are just no longer 'OK' anymore, when conditions change. Illegal immigration may be one such thing.

You still owe an explication on your outdated, debunked social views of cultures. You owe my MOM this explanation. Regardless, it seems as if you view immigration from such an ethnocentric prism since it favors the notion of exceptionalism.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:58 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,827 posts, read 30,110,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
So you change the system (get rid of in/out state tuition). Increase federal funding for state sponsored schools. Look, this isn't solely about the DREAM act. It's about the attitudes that prevail on the "anti-illegal" side of the issue.

It's funny because if the majority of illegal immigrants pay STATE taxes shouldn't be able to gain some benefit (esp. if they are trying to better themselves, thus in turn later contribute more in taxes?).

Regardless of this particular issue, the attitudes that prevail against this group of people are juxtaposed to the ideals we try to portray abroad. The justifications used for extreme actions against illegal immigration (I'm in favor with some aspects...doing away with birthright, instituting fines on employers...but still want reforms to address those that already live here) is ironically diametrically in opposition to the ideals of our nation.
They are driving on our roads, I'd say that covers any taxes they may happen to pay.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:01 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,082,947 times
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Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
I dont think that recieveing a break on STATE run school tuition is a question of Constitutional right.

please cite the constiutional right being deprived.
Actually, I can't believe I missed that. Good catch! The invocation of the constitution in order to further push an agenda of exclusion is really interesting to me. Often times the people who do so don't really know the constitution. To be perfectly frank, I only directly cite the constitution if I need to make a point...not arbitrarily associate issues to it.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:02 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,082,947 times
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Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
They are driving on our roads, I'd say that covers any taxes they may happen to pay.
What? I don't see ANY logic in this post.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:36 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,094,384 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Love of country shouldn't equal to jingoism. Landmines? Really? We see that as Americans we increasingly are accepting fringe ideas to be a part of the mainstream. The Walmart Patriot is becoming a part of national discourse (think Tea baggers). And frankly, what's wrong with liking two countries. I love America, but love the country that my mom is from as well.

Unfortunately, Hispanics have suffered discrimination throughout our national history just like any other minority group. Housing covenants, segregated schools, and mass deportations (even of those that were legal, esp in the 1930s) have happened in this community. While you (solytaire) personally may not have seen this growing up, doesn't mean that this element didn't exist. Many if not most Americans, in the previous generation, held onto the social Darwinist ideals that justified segregation.

See, I dont think the American sentiment towards illegal immigration is jingoist, nor xenophobic...It couldnt have been for it to have gotten this far imo. I honestly dont think dual patriotism works well at all. Conflicts of interests are inevitable from what I could foresee. Could dual patriotism ALSO mean that we have a better pipeline of communication with other countries?...possibly, in so much that our spies have great communication with N. Korea.

Now, I do believe there is a distinction to be made between the Darwinist segregation propaganda of yesteryear and the anti illegal propaganda of today. We OWE OUR CITIZENS the right to integrate if they so please. We do not, however, owe non citizens any rights at all. We are inactive solely due to compassion. True Darwinism wouldnt dictate that one group interact with another group only when it benefits them, and then distance themselves from that group when its inconvenient. That was merely convenient manipulation; I see nothing too Darwinist about it. Likewise, corporations and illegal's mutually manipulate their respective monopoly's (corporations/monetary power - illegals/cheap labor) to break U.S. policy and law.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:45 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,094,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
When was it a "non-issue"? In the 1880s with the Exclusion act? What about the Know-Nothing Party? How about in the 1930s with operation *******? In the 1990s with various propositions made against them? The Walmart patriot doesn't want to rectify the past. Essentially, they view it in terms of nostalgia and view 1950s America with such longing.

Look, this is why the historical perspective is important. Walmart patriots don't want to take the TRUE historical perspective. They want to deal with American mythology that reinforces the idea of American exceptionalism.
I was wondering: Why is the historical perspective which drives the emotion of revenge (Im not saying you personally want revenge..Im saying many illegal immigrant activists do), anymore important than the outraged emotion, driven by nostalgia, patriotism, or exceptionalism?

They are both emotions that may or may not be understandable depending on one's interpretation of history. So why is the emotion of many anti Illegal Americans any less valid than the emotion of illegal immigrant activists? I guess my question is (historical perspective vs. nostalgic)...isnt the only distinction to be made bitterness?
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:52 PM
 
34,990 posts, read 33,889,437 times
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Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
I find it interesting that while we live in a society that tries to espouse tolerance and equality. However, we don't behave so both globally and abroad. I find it even more interesting that those that want to deport and shut the borders neglect the larger issues. It's rather sad that we can decry the poor for being poor while we live out our middle class existence. Being the type of person I am, it really makes me wonder how we came to a point in which Walmart patriots have become the norm, have become the driving force in political discussion. A patriot is a person who loves their country. This does come in many forms. It can come from being critical of our government and ourselves. A Walmart patriot is a person who may love their country, but oft in a misguided and at times inadvertantly hypocritical manner. They typically lack the understanding of how nuanced issues are. They prefer consumption to conservation, feeling that it is their right to consume. Typically, they are conservative leaning. Latte liberal is the left's equivalent (I personally would put the two in the same category, but there are many demographic differences). Soundbites replace substantive research. Extremism replaces sound policies.

A great example is denouncing the DREAM act. The only substantive argument given is that those attending state sponsored universities should not be able to recieve such subsidies towards education. However, it has been shown that the majority of illegal immigrants have paid taxes. Another argument given is that they are illegal thus they shouldn't be here. True, but they are here. Simply put, it saves money in the long term to have a system in place that addresses these issues by providing these individuals with a decent education. The old adage is true; education pays.

The Walmart patriot simply uses emotional metrics to measure the success or failure of a certain policy. Selective facts are used, typically from sources that reinforce their beliefs.

Militarization of the border often times is a solution proposed by said types of people. While in theory a scare tactic is a good idea, the reality is far from theory. Currently, our government spends over $680 billion on defense. However, the figure is closer to $1trillion when considering other departments (besides defense) that aid in defense efforts. Our nation simply cannot fund this proposition. Regardless of funding, there is also the issue of international reception. With the global recession, many changes have occurred. The United States is increasingly being taken off its once golden perch. We simply cannot do as we wish. Putting troops on the border could be deemed as an escalation. This would not bode politically abroad.

The Walmart patriot simply wants to relive a sense of nostalgia in which America was the hegemonic power. A just, verdant, equal power.

We weren't. We never were. The Walmart patriot lives for American exceptionalism. Yet, we aren't the beacon of light and truth. We unjustly gained territories (the American SW, the Philippines, Hawaii). We had forced slavery. We later had an apartheid state. Our nation supported genocide in order to achieve Manifest Destiny. Currently, we have propped regimes that serve to disinterest the populations they serve (Congo, Haiti). We place demads on nations to swiftly reform their economies so that we can profit, while the local population suffer (Argentina, Jamaica, Venezuala, Mexico...various IMF reforms). We have a nasty track record of abuse in nations we are at war with (everything from prostitution rings, rape, abuse of civilians) We shoot innocent civilians in nations we aren't at war with (Pakistan). Our leaders feel that we should cut healthcare funding (the backlash against the public option). The list goes on.

Yet, Walmart patriots seem to feel that we occupy some niche of exceptionalism. They cite that our citizens help in the legal process. That they laws serve those that live here. Interestingly the facts paint a different picture. Minorities are more likely to be stopped than Whites. We have selective enforncement in this nation. Minorities are more likely to have harsher sentences than Whites for the same offense. Centuries of racist attitudes simply do not disappear. The illegal immigration debate simply reinforces this. Many arguments are given on the premise that they (typically Hispanics) do not follow the law. Somehow they don't fit within our context of exceptionalism.

The Walmart patriot simply wants pity and answers to the problems that plague them and those they care for.

Illegal immigrants comprise a super minority. Yet, according to the Walmart patriot demographic, they are responsible for failling schools across the nation, hospital closures across the nation, lack of jobs, high real estate prices, the subprime crisis, increased car premiums, increased health insurance premiums, higher taxes, and increased homeland security funding...just to name a few. To put it quickly and succinctly, most studies disprove this time and time again. Failing schools usually are due to unequal funding as well as other social variables. The majority of students in our nation are legal residents. Hospital closures are due to the inability of the poor to pay for medical treatment. Roughly 35%-40% of a hospital's budget is not recouped. This is the national average according to the AMA in a 2008 study. Those without health insurance, roughly 40 million residents, typically wait untill a problem gets worse. Illegal immigrants may contribute, but according to a Pew Hispanic Research study, rougly 40-50% of illegal immigrants have health insurance. Not as high as the general population, but it disproves the notion that illegal immigrants are universally uninsured.

Low wage jobs comprise the majority of illegal immigrant employment. The average illegal immigrant household income was roughly 40-45k, 20k shy of the national average, but significantly above the poverty level. The median income was slihgtly less at roughly 35k. This narrow income band indicates that that illegal immigrants are centered squarely in the lower middle class. Their income levels are consistent with other blue collar workers across the nation. With that said, wage depression is typically seen on the lowest scales of both illegal immigrants and citizens alike. It is important to note wage depression is more likely seen in the informal sector of the economy since employment is unregulated and hence skirts labor laws.

Blue collar workers face greater threats than illegal immigration. Automation of work, outsourcing, and the retooling of the American economy to being more service based are greater threats than illegal immigration.

The Walmart patriot is not a bad person. We all have aspects of the Walmart patriot. Yet, we can't base public policy on the Walmart patriot manifesto.
wonderful.

you're way too good a writer to be throwing away your efforts here.
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,902,906 times
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1guy. An interesting read and you stated your position about as well as it can be done. Although I disagree with much of it, it is not without merit...
Man is an example of the one of few animals that can adapt at will. In fact we are the undisputed masters of adaptation.
Self deportation. It happens everyday. Normally from an illegal unfriendly state to a friendly state. The burden simply shifts to another group of tax payers. Now if all states passed equal or comparable laws. what would happen?
If we enacted laws that punished any and all employers of illegals. What would happen?
What if we made making a living so difficult and so tedious for illegals as to remove it as a viable option?
They would be forced to self deport. They would adapt and move to where life isn't as difficult.
One might say that it is better to be poor than to be hunted.
For example. Where I work we have more rules and policies than the US Navy. At first many defied the rules when they started coming down.
Most of them no longer work for the company. Some quit, some were fired. Most who said that they would never give in, gave in without a fight. That is man.
The border. We as a nation actually have a great deal of experience in border security. Just not our own. The military is being paid for regardless of how we use them. WE have multiple enemies who wish to harm American citizens. They won't actively engage our military because inspite of their brave words they have no desire to be slaughtered.
Mexico was a favorite route for the KGB in the day. It has not changed.
Now do I believe that someone will try to sneak a nuke through Mexico?
Not really but it is about an easy a way to do it as there is. What I think is more likely is sneaking terrorists accross that border is an option that these groups consider everyday.
Drugs and the border. Can anyone deny that drugs flow accross the border?
Secure the border use the money wasted on the war on drugs that we give Mexico to help fund better border security. Post soldiers new recruits as well as seasoned vets with border agents. Its a great training opprotunity and it serves a valid purpose.
Walmart patriot? Not this patriot. This one has paid in the most expensive tender. I paid in blood and friends.
I agree with you that many simplify the problem. Me included. Why? Because most problems have simple but hard solutions.
I do not and never will agree with rewarding a cheat or a criminal. We read all the time about deportee's sneaking back in. About criminals who sneak in and victimize citizens. This is unacceptable. It is unacceptable because in most cases it was preventable.
We have the technology, we have the national will and we have the ability to rid ourselves of this burden. We owe nothing to illegals and everything to legal citizens.
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Old 02-06-2010, 04:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
I was wondering: Why is the historical perspective which drives the emotion of revenge (Im not saying you personally want revenge..Im saying many illegal immigrant activists do), anymore important than the outraged emotion, driven by nostalgia, patriotism, or exceptionalism?

They are both emotions that may or may not be understandable depending on one's interpretation of history. So why is the emotion of many anti Illegal Americans any less valid than the emotion of illegal immigrant activists? I guess my question is (historical perspective vs. nostalgic)...isnt the only distinction to be made bitterness?
Profound, thought-provoking post. What I've been trying to say, but much clearer. Either the 'sins of the past' (and that means EVERYBODY'S sins) are relevant to today, or they aren't.....either we assume the guilt for what our ancestors did (what EVERBODY'S ancestors did), or we don't. Either we discuss who's at fault for the predicament of today's illegals...(ALL of the parties who are at fault..including the illegals themselves)...or we don't.

In any case, though, we can't have it both ways. If we're going to assign blame, let's assign it...everywhere it's due. If we're going to plead for 'understanding', let's make sure we understand EVERYBODY, not just 'some'. And if we're trying to push the point that "our laws are not all that important", and that therefore it's OK to violate them, let's remember that, next time someone wants to violate a law we DON'T want violated.

One way, or the other....pick your position....but you can't have it both ways.
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:00 PM
 
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See, I dont think the American sentiment towards illegal immigration is jingoist, nor xenophobic...It couldnt have been for it to have gotten this far imo. I honestly dont think dual patriotism works well at all. Conflicts of interests are inevitable from what I could foresee. Could dual patriotism ALSO mean that we have a better pipeline of communication with other countries?...possibly, in so much that our spies have great communication with N. Korea.

Unfortunately the way things are is that the anti-illegal sentiment has an element of xenophobia to it. One of the largest critiques against illegal immigrants is the lack of assimilation. This goes against the current body of knowledge that shows that immigrants (regardless of legality) speak more English after subsequent generations. This implies assimilation. However, many state that immigrants and their children do not learn the language, thus contributing to an us. vs. them mentality. The main goal of xenophobics is to create a large enough divide in order to persuade the general population ("us") to go against the ohter group ("them").

We also see the complaint of too many people in a household. The average Hispanic family has about 3-4 people per household. Claims of how many people in a household are greatly exaggerated. This contributes to further the divide of us vs. them.

Lies of how Hispanics and crime again serve to further the division between groups.I understand that there other illegal immigrant groups, but to represent the vast majority I will use Hispanics. Although SE Asians face the same complaints (lack of assimilation, too many per household, high crime) as well, at least in Southern California. In fact, as previously posted on this forum, the Hispanic incarceration rate mirrors the national average. Unfortunately, Hispanics are still MUCH more likely than Whites to be put in jail (not as much as Blacks, however). The high incarceration rates of Blacks and Hispanics are partly due to selective enforcement (higher enforcement on minorities than on Whites). This occurs due to the stereotypes that are prevelant in our society. Xenophobia is one of the driving forces for this selective policing, at least for Hispanics.

So you see, xenophobia is quite prevelant. It may be in the same forms as the Victorian era, yet it is still quite alive.

As for dual patriotism, this is increasingly becoming fact with educated youth in the United States. Due to the increase of the global culture (think Web 2.0) regional fads can automatically can become a global phenomenon overnight. Transmission and difussion of information is instant in the age of Twitter and Facebook. Usually, there is no conflict of interest.

Now, I do believe there is a distinction to be made between the Darwinist segregation propaganda of yesteryear and the anti illegal propaganda of today. We OWE OUR CITIZENS the right to integrate if they so please. We do not, however, owe non citizens any rights at all. We are inactive solely due to compassion. True Darwinism wouldnt dictate that one group interact with another group only when it benefits them, and then distance themselves from that group when its inconvenient. That was merely convenient manipulation; I see nothing too Darwinist about it. Likewise, corporations and illegal's mutually manipulate their respective monopoly's (corporations/monetary power - illegals/cheap labor) to break U.S. policy and law.

People automatically assume that the person who speaks Spanish in public is illegal. An informal sampling of posts on this sub-forum has shown that. Several closed threads were based simply on the topic of Spanish in public. The poster usually would have no knowledge of the legality of the person and thus assume that they (the Spanish speaker) was illegal.

Social Darwinism is simply the belief that certain groups (racial, economic, or cultural) are lower by nature, thus are not fit. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. This driving belief has caused people to espouse the belief that illegals are somehow "naturally" lower. That inherently, they are unfit. Coupled this with American exceptionalism and you have very jingoist attitudes towards much of the world (specifically towards the rest of the Americas).

Our lending policies in Latin America have proved to be disasterous. Argentina, Mexico, Venezuala, Jamaica, and Haiti have suffered due to poor policies pushed by American interestes. Part of the rationale was that somehow, America knew what it was doing. Fair assumption. However, the local business communities of these nations were not given a voice to tell how implement policies. Again this is was due to the unfair assumption that the local population had no clue how their economy worked. Thus, economic collapse happened in those nations.

So again, it's not the xenophobia, jingoism, and social Darwinism of the Victorian era. It's those things 2.0. The general public is led to believe these things without going in depth about the issues. They are led to believe in American exceptionalism in order to garner support to push the agenda of those in power. It goes beyond just domestic policies, but also how we handle issues abroad.
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