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What is the problem with seemingly intelligent people using the quote button in order to make their posts more legible?
When I see the type of hot messes that are going on above, I simply skip them. I don't have time to decipher as I read.
I have to agree. I have stopped reading certain posts because I never know who said what. I follow the thread, but get lost in those long (winded) posts.
But thats my point..they arent part of our general population...we never were with them..our laws state it clearly...I dont see how a xenophobe could create a divide between something that never was...
I dont think Hispanic and Illegal should become interchangeable. Hispanic families are of no concern to me personally...if they want to have 24 kids or no kids...thats not my concern..now the moment that that becomes the main concern of anti illegal immigration activists, then that is the point at which I realize an element of etho-centrism has been introduced into a political issue.
I would respectfully disagree with this notion...I dont think xenophobia nor profiling is the predominate force behind law enforcement...Does it play a role?..sure, no doubt about it...but is it the overwhelming CAUSE of high incarceration rates of blacks and hispanics?...I submit that it is not...if anything I think it is because of the fact that hispanics and blacks have traditionally lived in dense urban areas where crime in general is high...incarceration stats in urban areas will hardly ever be accurately comparable to the incarceration rates of whites who are more likely to be rural or suburban. And who are not only dispersed over a larger which law enforcement must patrol, but who also have money to afford better representation once indicted.
I can see that how mass communications would transform the perspective of youth...however, I also think this is one of the very reasons for conflicting interests. Our apathy toward our illegal immigration problem, and our refusal to enforce our laws are no doubt attributable to the kumbayaa spirit of kinship, so easily evoked by youngsters. This is in direct conflict with those who serve our country in office and in arms, and those older Americans who do value our laws. Younger Americans are certainly more globalized than previous generations...consequently our apathy towards our rate of outsourcing is leading us toward demise as swiftly as our apathy toward our border security.
Ill disagree with this as well...America has actually actually been very accepting of refugees from Haiti (pre-quake), a provision which permitted them to offload their impoverished in the Southern U.S. Our lending policies in Mexico wouldnt be set by the U.S. specifically...that is a global lending institution that deems Mexico a country which does have the resources to support itself and therefore does not need the lending of poorer countries. We cant save the world and Mexico isnt our responsibility...the country has allowed itself to become a complete oligarchy, which abandoned any discipline in its spending, which has resulted in an obstruction of power among the poor class, and the abuse of it by the upper class.
From what I understand the country nationalized its mining and other industries that could produce privatized capital, which led to the hoarding of money by its govt. officials.
Essentially more of the same, and its becoming the increasingly familiar case in America: The govt. sold its citizens up the river for profit made from its natural resources.
I just dont understand how we can be globalists as was alleged earlier, and exceptionalists at the same time...again, I really think that begets us a conflict of interests. Nevertheless, I honestly think policy is a separate issue from existing law. What I speak of when addressing illegal immigration is enforcing the laws that we have already set...Policy is something for legislators to squabble over...However the legislators that we have elected dont hold our diplomacy and policies with Mexico, Venezuala, Jamaica etc as paramount to our nation. The policies are set, as are the laws... What I ask is that our elected officials not allow policy discrepancies to prevent them from doing their job as enforcers of set law.
In summary I think the biggest distinction I would make between America and Mexico/Venezuela/Haiti etc. is that Americans know that change comes from within...America isnt waiting on anyone to change their fortunes...even myself and other citizens who whine on this forum about illegal immigration are doing so with the understanding that change comes from one's self and the sentiment within. Without the initiative to change their own fates, Haiti, a democracy will still be subject to whoever wants to come along and offer to "save" them next...and once again, that nation, or Mexico, or Venezuela, or Jamaica, will be completely beholden to the will of its next "savior". Essentially it would be volunteer victimhood.
Well put...I agree with most of this. We can go on all week long criticizing the actions of America vs the whole human race, its narrow-mindedness, its mistreatment of minorities, its cavalier attitude, and its 'rocky' past...but without a point of reference..without describing what you're comparing us to, it's meaningless...you're essentially judging our behavior against a 'field of one'...US...and when you're only comparing us with ourselves, then whether we're doing 'good' or 'bad' is impossible to judge.
As for the question of 'American exceptionalism'? Well, of COURSE!...ALL of us pretty much agree that America is 'exceptional'. Some of us feel it's exceptionally GOOD, while others on the forum seem to feel that America is exceptionally BAD...but FEW of us would state that America is just 'ordinary'.
So America mistreats its illegal immigrants? Compared to where? Compared to their home countries? If they're mistreated, why are they still here? America mistreats Mexicans? Perhaps so...but we must treat Mexicans far better than they're treated in Mexico...10% of them are here, not there.
We have possibly 20 million people here illegally. I refuse to believe that 20 million people could be convinced to stay, voluntarily, in a place where they're being mistreated.
But then again, if we're not permitted to make comparisons, then maybe the US is truly the 'worst country on earth'...It's hard to say, unless you can compare.
Location: Oklahoma(formerly SoCalif) Originally Mich,
13,387 posts, read 19,432,243 times
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Originally Posted by macmeal
Well put...I agree with most of this. We can go on all week long criticizing the actions of America vs the whole human race, its narrow-mindedness, its mistreatment of minorities, its cavalier attitude, and its 'rocky' past...but without a point of reference..without describing what you're comparing us to, it's meaningless...you're essentially judging our behavior against a 'field of one'...US...and when you're only comparing us with ourselves, then whether we're doing 'good' or 'bad' is impossible to judge.
As for the question of 'American exceptionalism'? Well, of COURSE!...ALL of us pretty much agree that America is 'exceptional'. Some of us feel it's exceptionally GOOD, while others on the forum seem to feel that America is exceptionally BAD...but FEW of us would state that America is just 'ordinary'.
So America mistreats its illegal immigrants? Compared to where? Compared to their home countries? If they're mistreated, why are they still here? America mistreats Mexicans? Perhaps so...but we must treat Mexicans far better than they're treated in Mexico...10% of them are here, not there.
We have possibly 20 million people here illegally. I refuse to believe that 20 million people could be convinced to stay, voluntarily, in a place where they're being mistreated.
But then again, if we're not permitted to make comparisons, then maybe the US is truly the 'worst country on earth'...It's hard to say, unless you can compare.
We are the general population, they aren't. Pretty sure I stated that. I don't think you read this correctly. Xenophobes try to get the general population (us) against them (those not in the general population). I hope this provided some point of clarification.
Yes you did..thank you...but is this not our objective? we arent with anyone else except our NATO allies...
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Never said that they were. Simply illustrated the example of Hispanics, hence the disclaimer. That's exactly why I put that disclaimer in the paragraph. It may not be a personal concern, but that sentiment is felt throughout those that are extremely anti-illegal. It's a very common argument, again while you personally may not care that does not mean that it's any less used. Unfortunately it has entered into the political realm. Prop 187 in California is one notable example.
This is true, and I noted such to myself as I was writing my response...You did not use Hispanics and illegal immigration as an interchangeable demographic...you'll have to understand that because I dont concern myself with the issue of stereotypes, doesnt mean I dont care...I am simply stating that I filter those who DO stereotype out from my common particular opinion...a way of distancing in that particular aspect.
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Where are both the IMF and World Bank located? Washington D.C. While both international, significant funding comes from the United States. We pretty much dictate much of the lending that goes on to the 3rd world. Which is part of the reason why the whole being in debt to China is a big deal. We no longer can claim hemegony as long as we are a debtor nation to China in such a way.
But Washington D.C. doesnt have the sole authority to make lending policy..yet the WB has to be located somewhere so it is internationally consented that it be located in DC...and if that is the main quandary to lending policies of the U.S., then we can simply move the lending institutions to another country...Yet I have a feeling that even that wont change the influx of illegal immigrants to the United States....We dictate most of the lending because we lend the most, by far...however we, alone, dont dictate where those funds are allocated.
Would removing strings attached instill any understanding of debt obligation?...I dont see how lending is anymore adversely effecting Mexico, or Venezuela etc. than it effects other nations who simply arent responsible with their spending. Mexico seems to be quite a rich nation comparably to other economically stratified nations, yet its govt is only recently beginning to make attempts to end cronyism and corruption. Even today many members of its governing body, are residual of its old corrupt system. Until they fix their own corruption, I bid that we allow them to improve themselves before we
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In 2008 a bill was proposed to allow private invest of PEMEX. By all accounts, PEMEX has enables Mexico to stay relatively solvent.
My point exactly...though I was unaware of this bill, its passage only reiterates the fact that American govt. is prioritizing the welfare of other nations on the same plane as our own. I dont know the particulars but I dont see how PEMEX would enable Mexico to stay solvent when its passage did not allow for private Mexican oil companies to reap the same profits as PEMEX itself..Instead, my understanding is that it benefits foreign drillers more than Mexico. How will that help grow Mexico's own economy.
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Exceptionalism doesn't mean isolationist. Exceptionalism actually implies that we know what's best abroad. It's not AT ALL a conflict of interest. Oddly, isolationism and execpetionalism are more a conflict (not that they are even a conflict, but American brand exceptionalism has a global outlook to it).
I understand what exceptionalism is...but my point is that I dont see how we can know what's best abroad, or have the best philosophy, when we seek to expand our powers beyond our shores while respecting the govt. philosophies of other nations. For instance, I dont understand how we can instill our own brand of capitalism in Mexico by investing in their economy, when we equally respect the fact that their nation's wealthy/govt. abuses its power...are those not conflicts of interests to some degree?
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I think I see what you are trying to say. It seems that you are lumping domestic and foreign policies. My point was that the treatmen of those nations have led to economic ruin in those countries. The policies made were bad. Policies in Mexico helped stoke the already existing fire of illegal immigration. It helped increase the disparity of rich and poor. So our laws on the issue of illegal immgiration (different organization from the economic component mentioned) need to reflect those bad policies. They don't. So you have two sets of bad policies (one economic, the other immigration related).
I understand, and the information presented is enlightenment for me. I dont know all of the ins and outs of the U.S. - Mexico trade policy. But imo, the fact that the United States purchases most of Mexico's exports (as our own exports decline) indicates that we are already doing more than our part to strengthen Mexico's economy. I would even say that our immigration laws, combined with our trade practices actually compensate for an economy that we arent obligated to fix.
I mean technically, the U.S. could sit around pouting about the fact that Mexico didnt support its invasion of Iraq, and barely contributed troops to its undertaking. But their foreign policy is their foreign policy, and their minimal role doesnt give bitter U.S. citizens the right to flood their country with our impoverished. Since policy is directly correlated to law, then our laws have already reinforced the establishment of our policy foreign and domestic. I simply wish the U.S. would enforce its own law.
In the end I really think that mixing principals with policy is impractical for the objective of securing our borders.
Changing policies to further assist other nations and subsequently insulate this one from their ire/illegal immigrants, is something that I think is unsustainable and non beneficial for America in the long run. Changing our policies, at this juncture, would no doubt placate its beneficiaries. (Mexico, Haiti etc.) However, for the U.S. it would essentially be bartering for and buying our freedom and respect for our set laws, in return for their compliance. We arent the worlds benefactors, nor are we obligated to be. And I dont think it in this nation's best interest to compromise its principles behind its laws for politically and diplomacy driven policy.
Last edited by solytaire; 02-08-2010 at 01:16 PM..
Well put...I agree with most of this. We can go on all week long criticizing the actions of America vs the whole human race, its narrow-mindedness, its mistreatment of minorities, its cavalier attitude, and its 'rocky' past...but without a point of reference..without describing what you're comparing us to, it's meaningless...you're essentially judging our behavior against a 'field of one'...US...and when you're only comparing us with ourselves, then whether we're doing 'good' or 'bad' is impossible to judge.
Being critical of your nation is not a bad thing. Actually, it's needed. What's meaningless is essentially sweeping these issues under the rug and not rectifying the past. The bold part makes no sense. Just because other regimes are worse, doesn't mean we can rest on our "laurels".
As for the question of 'American exceptionalism'? Well, of COURSE!...ALL of us pretty much agree that America is 'exceptional'. Some of us feel it's exceptionally GOOD, while others on the forum seem to feel that America is exceptionally BAD...but FEW of us would state that America is just 'ordinary'.
That's kind of not the meaning of American exceptionalism. American exceptionalism is essentially the belief that America occupies a special niche in which we are the exception. We have "moral authority" on global issues due to this exceptionalism. We have "economic authority" as well, because we occupy this special niche.
Liking your nation is one thing. Believing that your nation is inherently the best is completely another. There needs to be some moderation, otherwise you will not be able to solve the social issues that plague our nation and world.
So America mistreats its illegal immigrants? Compared to where? Compared to their home countries? If they're mistreated, why are they still here? America mistreats Mexicans? Perhaps so...but we must treat Mexicans far better than they're treated in Mexico...10% of them are here, not there.
Doesn't really justify anything. Again, these are great Walmart patriot argument. There are still many issues that need to be addressed with regards to illegal immigrants.
We have possibly 20 million people here illegally. I refuse to believe that 20 million people could be convinced to stay, voluntarily, in a place where they're being mistreated.
We have closer to 10...if that. I digress.
But then again, if we're not permitted to make comparisons, then maybe the US is truly the 'worst country on earth'...It's hard to say, unless you can compare.
You don't compare. If we used this method for desegregation, and compared to Rhodesia, Angola, South Africa, Kenya...the civil rights movement would not have taken root as soon as it did in the US. You simply do what is right. You find means and methods for all persons to be successful.
What is the problem with seemingly intelligent people using the quote button in order to make their posts more legible?
When I see the type of hot messes that are going on above, I simply skip them. I don't have time to decipher as I read.
If you "don't have the time" to get into a serious discussion, what are you here for then? Just soundbites being repeated?
They're easy to read...as he responds to all points of what people are saying instead of just going off on rants.
I find it interesting that while we live in a society that tries to espouse tolerance and equality. However, we don't behave so both globally and abroad. I find it even more interesting that those that want to deport and shut the borders neglect the larger issues. It's rather sad that we can decry the poor for being poor while we live out our middle class existence. Being the type of person I am, it really makes me wonder how we came to a point in which Walmart patriots have become the norm, have become the driving force in political discussion. A patriot is a person who loves their country. This does come in many forms. It can come from being critical of our government and ourselves. A Walmart patriot is a person who may love their country, but oft in a misguided and at times inadvertantly hypocritical manner. They typically lack the understanding of how nuanced issues are. They prefer consumption to conservation, feeling that it is their right to consume. Typically, they are conservative leaning. Latte liberal is the left's equivalent (I personally would put the two in the same category, but there are many demographic differences). Soundbites replace substantive research. Extremism replaces sound policies.
A great example is denouncing the DREAM act. The only substantive argument given is that those attending state sponsored universities should not be able to recieve such subsidies towards education. However, it has been shown that the majority of illegal immigrants have paid taxes. Another argument given is that they are illegal thus they shouldn't be here. True, but they are here. Simply put, it saves money in the long term to have a system in place that addresses these issues by providing these individuals with a decent education. The old adage is true; education pays.
The Walmart patriot simply uses emotional metrics to measure the success or failure of a certain policy. Selective facts are used, typically from sources that reinforce their beliefs.
Militarization of the border often times is a solution proposed by said types of people. While in theory a scare tactic is a good idea, the reality is far from theory. Currently, our government spends over $680 billion on defense. However, the figure is closer to $1trillion when considering other departments (besides defense) that aid in defense efforts. Our nation simply cannot fund this proposition. Regardless of funding, there is also the issue of international reception. With the global recession, many changes have occurred. The United States is increasingly being taken off its once golden perch. We simply cannot do as we wish. Putting troops on the border could be deemed as an escalation. This would not bode politically abroad.
The Walmart patriot simply wants to relive a sense of nostalgia in which America was the hegemonic power. A just, verdant, equal power.
We weren't. We never were. The Walmart patriot lives for American exceptionalism. Yet, we aren't the beacon of light and truth. We unjustly gained territories (the American SW, the Philippines, Hawaii). We had forced slavery. We later had an apartheid state. Our nation supported genocide in order to achieve Manifest Destiny. Currently, we have propped regimes that serve to disinterest the populations they serve (Congo, Haiti). We place demads on nations to swiftly reform their economies so that we can profit, while the local population suffer (Argentina, Jamaica, Venezuala, Mexico...various IMF reforms). We have a nasty track record of abuse in nations we are at war with (everything from prostitution rings, rape, abuse of civilians) We shoot innocent civilians in nations we aren't at war with (Pakistan). Our leaders feel that we should cut healthcare funding (the backlash against the public option). The list goes on.
Yet, Walmart patriots seem to feel that we occupy some niche of exceptionalism. They cite that our citizens help in the legal process. That they laws serve those that live here. Interestingly the facts paint a different picture. Minorities are more likely to be stopped than Whites. We have selective enforncement in this nation. Minorities are more likely to have harsher sentences than Whites for the same offense. Centuries of racist attitudes simply do not disappear. The illegal immigration debate simply reinforces this. Many arguments are given on the premise that they (typically Hispanics) do not follow the law. Somehow they don't fit within our context of exceptionalism.
The Walmart patriot simply wants pity and answers to the problems that plague them and those they care for.
Illegal immigrants comprise a super minority. Yet, according to the Walmart patriot demographic, they are responsible for failling schools across the nation, hospital closures across the nation, lack of jobs, high real estate prices, the subprime crisis, increased car premiums, increased health insurance premiums, higher taxes, and increased homeland security funding...just to name a few. To put it quickly and succinctly, most studies disprove this time and time again. Failing schools usually are due to unequal funding as well as other social variables. The majority of students in our nation are legal residents. Hospital closures are due to the inability of the poor to pay for medical treatment. Roughly 35%-40% of a hospital's budget is not recouped. This is the national average according to the AMA in a 2008 study. Those without health insurance, roughly 40 million residents, typically wait untill a problem gets worse. Illegal immigrants may contribute, but according to a Pew Hispanic Research study, rougly 40-50% of illegal immigrants have health insurance. Not as high as the general population, but it disproves the notion that illegal immigrants are universally uninsured.
Low wage jobs comprise the majority of illegal immigrant employment. The average illegal immigrant household income was roughly 40-45k, 20k shy of the national average, but significantly above the poverty level. The median income was slihgtly less at roughly 35k. This narrow income band indicates that that illegal immigrants are centered squarely in the lower middle class. Their income levels are consistent with other blue collar workers across the nation. With that said, wage depression is typically seen on the lowest scales of both illegal immigrants and citizens alike. It is important to note wage depression is more likely seen in the informal sector of the economy since employment is unregulated and hence skirts labor laws.
Blue collar workers face greater threats than illegal immigration. Automation of work, outsourcing, and the retooling of the American economy to being more service based are greater threats than illegal immigration.
The Walmart patriot is not a bad person. We all have aspects of the Walmart patriot. Yet, we can't base public policy on the Walmart patriot manifesto.
Excellent post! And the best part is how you try to appeal to them, and show them the perils of their mindset instead of approaching it with a hostile attitude. Unfortunately, as usual, they respond with sneering hostility.
Like someone else said, you're a great writer. Very intelligent and well thought out posts that are unfortunately wasted in here.
Excellent post! And the best part is how you try to appeal to them, and show them the perils of their mindset instead of approaching it with a hostile attitude. Unfortunately, as usual, they respond with sneering hostility.
Like someone else said, you're a great writer. Very intelligent and well thought out posts that are unfortunately wasted in here.
I se no problem with being hostile towards criminals--------which illegal aliens are. And that includes booting any DREAMie here in the USA out--------permanently.
Excellent post! And the best part is how you try to appeal to them, and show them the perils of their mindset instead of approaching it with a hostile attitude. Unfortunately, as usual, they respond with sneering hostility. Like someone else said, you're a great writer. Very intelligent and well thought out posts that are unfortunately wasted in here.
I totally agree with this last bit. His posts are very well written and informative.
However, I stopped reading them because he refuses to quote who said what. Quoting does help one follow the conversation a lot better than just pulling apart someone's post and answering within that post.
His words of wisdom are falling on blind eyes that don't want to wade through the mess that he calls posting.
That's just how it is.
Excellent post! And the best part is how you try to appeal to them, and show them the perils of their mindset instead of approaching it with a hostile attitude. Unfortunately, as usual, they respond with sneering hostility.
Like someone else said, you're a great writer. Very intelligent and well thought out posts that are unfortunately wasted in here.
The man has a penchant for writing....no doubt about it. Yet in the end, there's been not a single mention of 'what to do' about illegal immigration that the average person could relate to..only a convoluted and vaguely-connected "tirade" against the entire American 'system', from the time of its founding, through its violent, abusive, and racist history, right up to the present day. The common thread running through ALL of it is that "we" (the average US citizen) could "do something" about illegal immigration if we ONLY...(changed our economy...changed our daily habits...changed the way we live...what we eat, what we buy....changed our xenophobia...opened our minds...and realized that the US is 'nothing special'...'got over ourselves'...lowered our expectations...etc etc etc etc.)
Meanwhile, mention is NEVER made that the remotest possibility may exist that some of these illegals are victims of their OWN societies; nor that these other societies are responsible for their own internal problems...(ALL of their problems, apparently, being the result of what "we" (the US) have "done to them"...(loaned them money...NOT loaned them money...started wars...failed to STOP other wars....made THEM start wars...dealt with 'tyrants'...made people "do what they do",... fomented 'class envy',..."imposed" our culture upon them by force...and in every way, "interfered" with their societies).
It's an entirely one-sided philosophy remarkable ONLY for its length, verbosity, and volume...basically, all he's really saying is that "US society is flawed; it's evil; it benefits NO ONE without some selfish expectation of 'return'...The US has NEVER invited immigrants unless it's to exploit them, and the US is both, at the same time, one of the most xenophobic, smug, and inward-looking societies on earth, while simultaneously allowing its businessmen to roam the earth looking to exploit all other nations by virtue of our 'globalism'....and that there's no such place as 'The Third World', because all societies are equally good and progresive...but there IS a Third World, because that's what the US has grown rich by exploiting....and the US has never "lifted a finger" to help an immigrant, preferring to 'use' and mistreat them, and strip them of their cultures...and yet, apparently, people outside the US must be extraordinarily gullible, because immigrants continue to pour in, even today, so they can get in on the 'exploitation' of themselves...and they all LOVE their countries of origin, and the proud cultures therein...but they fight tooth, nail, and claw, and scream 'bloody murder' in order to avoid deparation, from here where we 'exploit' them, to back home where they're 'appreciated'.
So are these impressive lengthy 'proclamations'..of course. The man, as I said, puts out an impressive number of words, in an impressive number of posts. But are they practical? No. Basically, they're all just an attempt to regularize the status of illegals by embarking on a paragraphs-long condemnation of the entire US system, history, and way of life, without allowing any comparisons with any other 'culprit'.
A verbose writer could do this on any subject. Imagine any crime or 'negative behavior' you want....from rape, murder, and mayhem...to malicious gossip, child abuse, burglary, jaywalking, or any of a thousand other occurrences. ANY such behavior could, if a writer wanted to, be laid at the feet of 'American society', and he could easily say "we (all of us) made the person do what he did"...and that his behavior annoyed..or outraged..or disturbed us, because we hadn't bothered to find out "WHY the person did" whatever it was that he was 'doing'. The implication is that child abuse wouldn't bother us if "only we learned WHY people abuse their children"....and that, if only we'd study the historical precedents for robbery (and the notion of private belongings), that we'd somehow come to terms with the burglars in our midst, intstead of 'demonizing' them.
These pieces on illegal immigration are no different. It's "our fault" it's happening, it's only an annoying problem because "we don't see the overall picture", and besides that, no one would have ANY objection to illegal immigration, if they weren't already predisposed to their feelings by racism, xenophobia, and 'anti-Hispanic' hysteria.
We might just as easily write a piece on "why the Sudan has never put a man on the moon"....or "why the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could never get along together in Yugoslavia"....or "why The Taliban has never elected a woman to a leadership position"....or "why the Nazis never signed a peace treaty with the rest of Europe"....or "why Chinese haven't yet allowed much freedom of the press"..etc etc etc....and in every case, it would be "Why? That's EASY !!...it's because the USA wouldn't LET them, THAT'S why !....it's just too big, has too much influence, and interferes in too many things". In fact' I'm sure there are people on this forum who DO believe such things....but that doesn't make them true.
Huge, long-winded writings? Absolutely. They show a certain skill with a phrase. But are they relevant? No more so than any average 'short' piece, in my opinion.
Last edited by macmeal; 02-09-2010 at 02:59 PM..
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