Indianapolis: downhill or uphill?

[krock1dk]

Originally Posted by Naptowner

I wasn't lecturing you, just pointing out, factually, that Indianapolis is not a major city. Is it large? Sure, compared to many smaller cities. But as a metropolitan area, Indianapolis is not within the top 30 in the country. I'm not sure why you are taking this information personally.

Didnt look hard enough. Go to Wikipedia and look it up. Yes, Indianapolis, the COMBINED Statistical Area according to the Census IS in the top 30--23rd to be exact. And all metro areas are defined by the Census Bureau and include smaller towns that dont have much to do with the central city. Do you think Indy stands alone and defines itself? But yes, I do take it personally for some reason. Dont know why.

[Naptowner]

According to: Indianapolis-Carmel, IN Metropolitan Statistical Area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Indianapolis-Carmel, IN, Metropolitan Statistical Area is the 33rd largest Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) in the United States."

33rd is also where the Indianapolis MSA ranks on this table: Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I came across these Wikipedia pages, but didn't mention them earlier because I thought you might consider the population estimates too far out of date, and additionally, we have been talking about two different things. I mentioned, correctly, that the Indianapolis MSA is well under two million and not in the top thirty, and you were referencing the Indianapolis, Anderson, Columbus Combined Statistical Area, which is a different animal completely. A CSA is simply a group of counties that have sufficient commuting ties. Specifically, the census uses the extent of "employment interchange" to determine whether an adjacent county is part of a CSA. If as few as one in 12 people in two adjacent counties cross county lines to go to work, those two counties can be linked into a CSA. It's not intended to quantify the population of the metro area associated with a particular city. That's what the Indianapolis-Carmel MSA is for, and by that measure, which includes Marion and all eight counties surrounding it, Indianapolis is well under 2 million and not in the top 30

But in your defense, there's also this, from the first page: "The Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN Combined Statistical Area has a July 1, 2007, Census Bureau estimated population of 2,014,267. The Combined Statistical Area is the 28th largest metropolitan area in the U.S."

So no, it's not 23rd according to that page (although it IS ranked 23rd on this table: Table of United States Combined Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Either way it is in the top 30, and - thanks to the inclusion of Jennings, Brown, Putnam, Henry, and Montgomery Counties - manages to top 2 million. I still maintain that cities like Newcastle, Crawfordsville, Greencastle, Nashville, and Martinsville are so far removed from Indianapolis that it's not accurate to consider them part of the city - but you have a valid point that other CSAs may include similarly far-flung cities. I know this, though: there is nothing 'metropolitan' about Brown County or most of these other areas. The fact that these counties are in the CSA only means that a small number of people in that county and the adjacent county are crossing the county line to go to work. The CSA is a flawed measure of the size of a city, and I don't think it's accurate to use that as a measure of the size of Indianapolis.

But if it makes you feel better I'm not despondent, I like Indianapolis for what it is, and I've lived here for a long time.

[krock1dk]

Originally Posted by Naptowner

According to: Indianapolis-Carmel, IN Metropolitan Statistical Area - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Indianapolis-Carmel, IN, Metropolitan Statistical Area is the 33rd largest Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) in the United States."

33rd is also where the Indianapolis MSA ranks on this table: Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I came across these Wikipedia pages, but didn't mention them earlier because I thought you might consider the population estimates too far out of date, and additionally, we have been talking about two different things. I mentioned, correctly, that the Indianapolis MSA is well under two million and not in the top thirty, and you were referencing the Indianapolis, Anderson, Columbus Combined Statistical Area, which is a different animal completely. A CSA is simply a group of counties that have sufficient commuting ties. Specifically, the census uses the extent of "employment interchange" to determine whether an adjacent county is part of a CSA. If as few as one in 12 people in two adjacent counties cross county lines to go to work, those two counties can be linked into a CSA. It's not intended to quantify the population of the metro area associated with a particular city. That's what the Indianapolis-Carmel MSA is for, and by that measure, which includes Marion and all eight counties surrounding it, Indianapolis is well under 2 million and not in the top 30

But in your defense, there's also this, from the first page: "The Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN Combined Statistical Area has a July 1, 2007, Census Bureau estimated population of 2,014,267. The Combined Statistical Area is the 28th largest metropolitan area in the U.S."

So no, it's not 23rd according to that page (although it IS ranked 23rd on this table: Table of United States Combined Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Either way it is in the top 30, and - thanks to the inclusion of Jennings, Brown, Putnam, Henry, and Montgomery Counties - manages to top 2 million. I still maintain that cities like Newcastle, Crawfordsville, Greencastle, Nashville, and Martinsville are so far removed from Indianapolis that it's not accurate to consider them part of the city - but you have a valid point that other CSAs may include similarly far-flung cities. I know this, though: there is nothing 'metropolitan' about Brown County or most of these other areas. The fact that these counties are in the CSA only means that a small number of people in that county and the adjacent county are crossing the county line to go to work. The CSA is a flawed measure of the size of a city, and I don't think it's accurate to use that as a measure of the size of Indianapolis.

But if it makes you feel better I'm not despondent, I like Indianapolis for what it is, and I've lived here for a long time.

You dont have to be 'urban' to be considered part of a metropolitan area. According to the Census Bureau, there are several criteria that includes a county within a metro area:

1. At least 40% of the people must commute somewhere within the core metropolitan county (Marion) for work. It sounds funny, but is why the census includes Brown and Putnam fot the Indianapolis-Carmel MSA, but excludes Madison County even though its actually closer to Indianapolis.

2. A core urban population of at least 50,000

Yes, what the Census Constitutes as the Indianapolis-Carmel MSA is odd but thats what it is. I'm sure you will find it similar with other MSAs too i.e. Marion County OH as being part of the Columbus MSA or Pinal County AZ as part of Phoenix-Mesa when its nowhere near the city.

[Colts]

I've never considered Indianapolis to be anything other than a "major city". Especially having grown up in a small town, and now living in a truly mid-sized city (Ft. Wayne). It's not a world city by any means, but come on--the area has 2 million people, and most of the stereotypical things that cities generally have (pro sports teams, public transit, crime, skyscrapers, foreign people, etc). There are only about 40 metro areas in this country that have over 1 million people around a "true" core city. I guess if Indy isn't a "major city", then neither is Pittsburgh, Sacramento, Kansas City, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Columbus, Nashville, and Milwaukee--all metro areas about the same size as Indy.

Having got that out of the way, let me just say that Indianapolis is certainly moving uphill. It's future undoubtedly appears to be bright based on the progress made over the last several years.

[Naptowner]

Central Indiana has over 2 million people. The Indianapolis metropolitan area has 1.7 million or so. It's not in the top 30 metro areas in the country. How many "major" cities can there be? It's a subjective term that means different things to different people. No, I guess I wouldn't list any of those cities as a "major" city. To me, I'm thinking more of NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, Philly, Dallas, Miami, DC, San Fran, Atlanta. But I still think Indianapolis is a fine place to live. I don't know that it's rapidly improving, but it's not going downhill very much either right now.

[Ravekid]

Originally Posted by Colts

Having got that out of the way, let me just say that Indianapolis is certainly moving uphill. It's future undoubtedly appears to be bright based on the progress made over the last several years.

I disagree. I believe it is moving downhill, or sideways at best. I personally am sick of the political, elite hacks stealing from the taxpayers. The amount of cronyism and corruption are horrible: CIB, Indianapolis Downtown Inc., Airport Authority, etc. etc. They are all in some fashion taxpayer funded, and the people that run them are raking in huge sums of money...and I wounder just how much they are really doing?

Under the current march towards public-private partnership Socialism in this country, Indianapolis could end up dead. We have Obama saying that he wants the federal government now directly involved in student loans. While Sallie Mae _might_ get the contract to be the provider, it is not a done deal. Not only that, the fed gov would pretty much have a lot more control over Sallie Mae. What does this mean to their large complex up in Fishers? What if the fed gov mandated Sallie Mae move that facility to their main offices, out-of-state? Next in line in that march is health care. This could kill off Lilly and Wellpoint, depending on the politics played.

I think Indianapolis is at a crossroads. We have three large employeers who could be majorly affected by the public-private partnership Socialism we are seeing in this country.

[raindance7]

I have been gone for two years but lived there most of my adult life. I love many things about Indianapolis, but the crime was allowed to flourish under former mayor bart petersons administration. He understood money and business but had not care about what kinds of conditions us commoners lived in. The courts are overcrowded, the jails are overcrowed and crime was let to run like crazy. I do believe the new administration is trying to get a handle on it but when you let it get that out of control it takes time to get a handle on things. The areas outside of Marion county are still great to live in. Indianapolis has some great people and good diversity and wonderful activities. Just need citizens to speak up about the problems and find a way to address the drug issues and get to the root of some the problems to get our city back on track. Schools in the city, even the township schools have gone downhill. IPS students can get a good education in the right magnet programs but it takes a lot of time and knowledge of the parents and being it is the poorest school district that is not the norm. Township schools offer educational opportunities based on social economical standing. I think if we started with offering EVERY child a GOOD education it would filter in and help all the other problems. I still love this city.