U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-06-2016, 03:28 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Believe in general is a very complex, extensive and can be a very complicated process that involve a lot of factors.
"Believe" in Islam is not "believe in general" but "Believe in Specific". The "Specific" here is Allah.

Quote:
This is why I raised so many threads on the subject relating to 'believe' to increase and raise your awareness so you can have access to understand [not sure you can understand it or not] of the subject.
I can see that you have suddenly begun to believe so without having any eeman. How can an uneducated man become a teacher of teachers without learning himself first?

Quote:
Note we are discussing in this case whether eeman [faith] is in the precise, strict, or loose sense.
The term "eeman" in 3:193 was used in the general and loose sense not the strict sense.
It was used in precise sense that you do not understand. It was never used as in general or loose sense. The give away for that is that their pryer was accepted by Allah. Allah accepts prayer of a believer who has eeman in precise sense only (proved by 49:14 and 3:139).

Quote:
This is just like some one going to Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner and some preacher calling that person to "the faith" of Islam by calling "Believe in Your Lord." This is a very general or and rather public statement and thus it is in the loose sense.
The listener, whether in the Hyde Park or nearby on the other side of the marble arch, will believe only if he actually believes, and not just because he was told by the speaker to believe.

Quote:
However if your iman ask you to increase the strength of your faith by putting more efforts in the 6 pillars of eeman, then that iman is speaking of eeman [faith] in the strict sense. In this case, the iman has zoomed into the specifics of the process of eeman.
My iman (imam) never asks me to add eeman in eeman but just have eeman and practice Islam (submission).

Quote:
In the contexts of 49:14 the wandering Arabs were trying to assert proudly [or ignorantly] as if they were serious believers [strict] by stating "We believe [strict]."
You are just making it up all these [strict] and [loose] just to give a bit of confidence to your believe (general and loose). This is proved by your statement here about wandering Arabs doing a favour to Muhammad was stating "We believe [strict" but not in the case of those in 3:193 even though their prayer was accepted by Allah. Are you really serious in your understanding of eeman?

Quote:
Allah conveyed to them by stating, NO! you are not serious believers [strictly] yet but merely have submitted [islam]. They are not serious believers [strict] because the faith [strict] has not entered their hearts as they have not focused on the 6 pillars of eeman.
Then why don't you believe that the group of people in 3:193 were serious believers as Allah had not only not rejected their believe but had even accepted their prayer?

Quote:
The group in 3:193 stated they believe but they believe in the general or loose sense. It is just like 'we were advised to believe [generally] so we believe [generally or loosely]. There is no talk of the specific 6 pillars of eeman.
Then why did Allah accept their prayer if their believe was not specific to the 6 pillars of eeman? I say, their eeman was eeman precise and specific 6 pillars of eeman the reason Allah accepted their prayer.

Quote:
Allah conveyed they have not believed in the strict sense.
However it is implied they have believed in the loose sense and Allah conveyed they had submitted [strict sense] and thus are Muslims as confirmed in 49:17.
Allah said that they had not believed because eeman had not entered their heart. Therefore, if eeman does not enter one's heart, he has not believed. The point to note here is eeman entering one's heart for believing to be precise believing. Loose believing is not believing (precise).

Quote:
The point is this:
1. In 49:14 the wandering claimed the believed in the strict sense.
You are only imagining so. Doing a favour to Muhammad is not the claim of serious believe. You are just making up these claims as you go on!

Quote:
It is not mentioned but it is implied in the contexts of the verse and 49:17 they had believed-in-the-loose- sense.
2. Based on a believe in the loose sense, they had submitted to Allah and thus were Muslims [49:17].
You are assuming too much. Allah said that they had not believed. That means "believe in loose sense" is not believe in Allah's sight
but only in your sight.

Quote:
Note I stated in 3:193 eeman is used in the general and loose sense which is applicable to any one and any Muslim.
Then why it wasn't accepted as believe by Allah in case of 49:14 bt accepted in case of 3:193?

Quote:
Muhammad was preaching to people to believe [loose] in Allah, so these group of people believed [loose]. There is no indication of eeman in the strict sense at all in 3:193.
There is but you are failing to understand it. Their believe was not rejected by Allah but even their prayer was accepted by Allah. So you are utterly wrong in this case.

Quote:
It can be tens, hundreds or a million+ shades of grey between strict and loose sense depending on the criteria one use since we are referring to a eeman [strict] as a mental state.
Then it is not 6 pillars for eeman but tens, hundreds or millions of pillars in your mental state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-06-2016, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
"Believe" in Islam is not "believe in general" but "Believe in Specific". The "Specific" here is Allah.
I think you lack general knowledge of 'strict' and 'loose' sense in its hierarchical form.

1. When you tell some one the City of London exists in such and such a location, with certain properties, etc. That is in the loose sense and if some one believe your assertion that is belief in the loose form.
2. When you state the City of London is in the UK, you are moving into the stricter mode but not sufficient strict yet. This is what I meant with the shade of grey, i.e. at this point it more in the looser sense than the strict sense.
3. If you describe City of London is within the County of London [greater] then you are shifting towards a more stricter sense than being in the looser sense as in 1.
4. If you describe the City of London by its boundaries [GPS markings] and all the other qualities of the City of London, then you are indeed using the strictest sense.

How the other person believe each of your description will depend on many factors. On the basis of 4, the believe of the other person is obviously in the stricter sense because it is getting more and more specific within the hierarchy of belief.
However the belief of the other person would be at the highest degree if s/he fly to the City of London and verify and confirm all the elements that you have described.

The above principles of the hierarchy of believe, believing and beliefs is applicable to eeman [faith, belief without proofs nor justifiable reasons].

Thus the belief in Allah is specific in the sense the thing to be believed is specific BUT the sense of believe is still in the loose sense.
At the lower level of belief a believe in a specific Allah is in the loose sense. Some can just believe in a specific Allah of the Quran [Islam] and believe that specific Allah is the Greatest and can promise and deliver eternal life in Paradise. This belief of a specific Allah of the Quran and Islam is sufficient for one to submit and be a Muslims by affirming the Shahada.
At this point there is no elements of eeman in the strict sense, i.e. the 6 pillars of eeman.
If you insist there is eeman, then it is not in the strict sense but in the loose sense.

The differentiation here between the strict and loose sense is critical because it establish a step-ladder [as introduced by Allah in a combination of the various verses] for a beginner Muslim to progress.
If a beginner believed s/he already had "eeman" from the start then there is no indication that he has to progress and s/he will get arrogant and complacent.
But if a beginner Muslim is told s/he has to progress within the 6 pillars of eeman [regardless of whatever eeman he has or do not has] then there is a path for the beginner to progress.
Quote:
I can see that you have suddenly begun to believe so without having any eeman. How can an uneducated man become a teacher of teachers without learning himself first?
Obviously I don't have eeman at all because I am not a Muslim.
However I am very well verse with the fundamental principles of "what is believe" that underlie the concept of eeman [specifically Islamic only].

For example if I am an expert in nutrition I will be able to advise any human on how to eat to be healthy regardless s/he is eating Muslim food or whatever food.

Quote:
It was used in precise sense that you do not understand. It was never used as in general or loose sense. The give away for that is that their prayer was accepted by Allah. Allah accepts prayer of a believer who has eeman in precise sense only (proved by 49:14 and 3:139).
That 'believe' was to 'believe in a specific thing', i.e. Allah. The thing to be believe [Allah of the Quran] is specific but the mode and sense of believe is not specific nor strict. The mode of believe was in the general and loose sense.
The group was asked by Muhammad to believe in a specific Allah of the Quran in a general and loose sense without reference to the 6 pillars of eeman in the strict and detail sense.

Quote:
The listener, whether in the Hyde Park or nearby on the other side of the marble arch, will believe only if he actually believes, and not just because he was told by the speaker to believe.
This is obvious in this case.
However the listener was influenced and convinced by the speaker to believe, but in general the listener in the Speakers' Corner can only believe in the loose sense/form of eeman because the preacher would not have time to expound on the strict sense of eeman, i.e. 6 pillars of eeman at that stage in Hyde Park.

Note there are some speakers who are very good at rhetorics and are very charismatics that they can influence some vulnerable believers to believe sincerely in a very short time. But at that point we cannot claim there is a serious [strict] degree of belief to the extent of being very familiar with the details and complexity of the 6 pillars of eeman by the believer. To progress from a loose, general belief the believer will have to put in effort to move towards the strict sense of believing, faith and 6 pillars of eeman.

Quote:
My iman (imam) never asks me to add eeman in eeman but just have eeman and practice Islam (submission).
Whilst it cannot be quantified exactly, if you have practiced correctly and diligently your faith [eeman] in the strict sense would have gradually increased over time. If you [average person] had done that for 40 years, surely we can be quite certain your degree of faith or eeman in the strict sense is "greater" then an average 8 years old child born into a Muslim family. I don't believe you will dispute this rational point.

Quote:
You are just making it up all these [strict] and [loose] just to give a bit of confidence to your believe (general and loose). This is proved by your statement here about wandering Arabs doing a favour to Muhammad was stating "We believe [strict" but not in the case of those in 3:193 even though their prayer was accepted by Allah. Are you really serious in your understanding of eeman?
Note problem solving and continuous-self-improvements are in my blood and as a way of life. You will note this element is present in all my posts where I kept introducing newer and more concepts to communicate the point across. In addition I bite the bullet and sacrifice a lot [very much] of time to study, research and analyze a very unpalatable Quran to understand its relation to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims [my empathy and compassion to them] who are born with evil tendencies.

My introduction of differentiating the 'strict' and 'loose' sense is to promote continuous-self-improvements and in this case introduce the concept of a step-ladder to facilitate improvement in any circumstances.

Quote:
Then why don't you believe that the group of people in 3:193 were serious believers as Allah had not only not rejected their believe but had even accepted their prayer?
The term "believe" used in 3:193 was intended to be used in the general and loose sense.
These people were from the general public who were preached to believe in a specific Allah in a general mode in some [market square or wherever] and they were influenced by the preacher to believe in general not in the strict sense as I don't believe the preacher would have expounded the strictly 6 pillars of eeman then.
I believe these group of people [al albabi] will eventually be serious believers [toward strict eeman] later in the life but not when they were first influenced by the preacher in the market square in Mecca or Medina.

Quote:
Then why did Allah accept their prayer if their believe was not specific to the 6 pillars of eeman? I say, their eeman was eeman precise and specific 6 pillars of eeman the reason Allah accepted their prayer.
Allah stated in the Quran he will accept any person who affirm the "Shahada" plus believe in the LAST DAY to enter into a covenant with Allah and submit [islam] to Allah. That is the minimal to qualify as a Muslim. That person may or may not have eeman, but there is not the critical element to qualify one as a Muslim is the eyes of Allah.
The minimal qualification to be a Muslims is submission to Allah via the Shahada.

To be a Muslim, a person do not has to believe or mentioned the 6 pillars of eeman which is in the strict sense. A Muslim can move toward eeman in the strict sense, i.e. 6 pillar of eeman after s/he has cultivate sufficient degree of submission via the 5 pillars of islam.

Quote:
Allah said that they had not believed because eeman had not entered their heart. Therefore, if eeman does not enter one's heart, he has not believed. The point to note here is eeman entering one's heart for believing to be precise believing. Loose believing is not believing (precise).
In the mind and body there are many doors to be opened in the hierarchy of believing, believe and beliefs.
Allah implied they have not believed because they have not opened the doors to eeman in the heart in the strict sense yet.
It is not mentioned in 49:14 but the implication is they have merely open the doors of believe in the loose sense in their mind.
Allah conveyed in 49:14 they have merely open the doors of submission [islam].

Quote:
You are only imagining so. Doing a favour to Muhammad is not the claim of serious believe. You are just making up these claims as you go on!
The 'doing of favor' is not related to "serious" believe specifically. The "doing of favor" is converting to being a Muslim.
Allah rebuked the wandering Arabs not to interpret their conversion as a favor to Muhammad on a personal basis as Muhammad is merely a warner and "parrot." It is Allah who extent the favor to them by leading them into the faith. 49:17

Quote:
You are assuming too much. Allah said that they had not believed. That means "believe in loose sense" is not believe in Allah's sight
but only in your sight.
I am interpreting in from the context of 49:14-17.
49:14 indicated the wandering Arabs were already Muslims when Allah stated they have submitted and confirmed in 49:17 they were already Muslims.

Note the concept of 'submission' within the whole context of the Quran and Islam is submission to Allah. IF Allah had intended the submission to Muhammad or some others, Allah would have stated so since this would be an exception to the norm. Therefore for you to insist the wandering Arabs had submitted to Muhammad is out of the normal, ridiculous, insulting to Allah and blasphemous.

Since Allah is not available to confirm the wandering submit to who, even if there is no serious reflection is taken into consideration, Muslims are obligated to give the respect to Allah and the benefit of doubt that the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah instead of Muhammad the slave and mere warner.

Point is 'submitting to Allah' in 49:14 make sense with the verses, chapters and the whole of the Quran and Islam [submission].

Quote:
Then why it wasn't accepted as believe by Allah in case of 49:14 bt accepted in case of 3:193?
It would be quite ridiculous to state the fact, i.e. the wandering Arabs believe loosely but claimed to believe strictly.
It would be not presentable if 49:14 present the fact, i.e.

The wandering Arab say, "We believe loosely and we believe strictly".

The context that follows, i.e. "you have merely submitted.." implied the believe claimed by the wandering Arabs is in the strict sense and not the loose sense.
Then 49:17 further confirm they have submitted to Allah when it is stated are Muslilms.

3:193 is "believe" in the loose sense all the way as explained earlier.
There is not mental gymnastic to make indirect inference from the contexts of the verses, chapters and the whole Quran.

Quote:
There is but you are failing to understand it. Their believe was not rejected by Allah but even their prayer was accepted by Allah. So you are utterly wrong in this case.
First they had believed in the loose sense when they affirmed the Shahada which was accepted by Allah. Thereafter if their prayers are accepted after the Shahada and as Muslim, there is no issue at all.
As explained above, these group from the many are al-albabi and they eventually will strive towards eeman in the strict sense, i.e. work seriously on the 6 pillars of eeman and then to the pillars of inhsaan and other advance mode.

Quote:
Then it is not 6 pillars for eeman but tens, hundreds or millions of pillars in your mental state.
You have missed this point badly.

There are only 6 main pillars of eeman but the strength of each pillar within the individual can vary in tens, hundreds or million of grade of strength.

Say, there are 1 million houses in a town built by individual family and each has 6 pillars to support the whole house.
Because they are built by individuals, the strength of each pillars will have a specific measurement in term of 10 decimals of stress strenght.
But because there are a million houses then there is a likely million of measurements that are different from one another.

Let say the strength of each pillar is measured by its ability to withstand stress pressure from 1-low to 100-high within 10 decimals.

Thus one pillar strength could be 75.123456789.
Another pillar may have a stress pressure strength of 75.123456900.
Other measurements could be;
80.123789456.
45.123456200.
90.456789123

I hope you get the point;

There are only 6 main pillars of eeman in one person's mind and brain.
The individual pillars will have different measurements in 10 decimals.
We can then arrive at the average by dividing the total of the 6 pillars by 6.

If there are a million person, then we can have one million different measurements, degrees or grade of measurements.
It is just like finger prints of the individual, if there are 1 million individuals then we have 1million different finger prints.

You stated you have an engineering background, then you should easily understand the above numbers and variations.

I understand it is impossible to get true measurements in term of strict eeman but we can estimate the measurements using various criteria[s] if we get serious with it. I am reasonable good with such estimates. It is like sculpturing a statue of from a solid block. The first cut will be rough and it get finer as we continually improve and polish it.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-06-2016 at 11:13 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top