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Old 01-09-2017, 08:37 PM
 
1,666 posts, read 769,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This show your progress as a Muslim is very low.



Note 46:19 state Muslims will be rewarded according to their ranks [and grades] accordingly.

I don't think Woodrow and Khalif were born with good patience, rather I believe they have cultivated this quality through practice.

You should learn from Woodrow and Khalif on how to control of your nafs [impulses]. Discussing with critiques is one good way to test and develop one's patience.
May Allah (swt) make you a better Muslim than me.
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
When the Qur'aan was being revealed, Allah's word was already there in books read by people who were aware of what is revelation. The Qur'aan is the word of Allah that verifies the word of Allah revealed before the Qur'aan.

[2.285] The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

[10.94] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.
You are pulling a fast one again.

Note my usual response to the above kind of views;

It is true the DEEN [so named Islam] was practiced by humans since Adam till Muhammad's time. But all the previous texts were corrupted [as claimed] thus there is nothing that can represent the original Islam-of-old at all.
The only set of texts that can represent the MESSAGE [Islam] of Allah is the Quran revealed to Muhammad during the period 710 AD to 732 AD via angel Gabriel.

The Quran is based on recitations that Muhammad declared are "Surahs" from Allah he got from Angel Gabriel. Thus the 114 chapters of Surah are the only representative of Islam from Allah.

The above may refer to some valid texts that could be valid as some point in time in the past,
But in accordance from the Islamic-box AT PRESENT [2016], it is irrelevant to refer to any other religious texts existing at present as valid, even the ones that has connections with Islam in the past, because they are all corrupted [as claimed in the Quran].

Will Muslims at present accept the various existing Bibles [OT and NT] wholly as a Book that is Islamic in accordance to 2:285?
No way!!
That is because the present Bible is not the same as the original revelation that was revealed by Allah as it contain corrupted verses, such as those re sonship, trinity, crucifixion, etc.

At most the Muslims can only agree with any specific verses that conform to the Quran but not the Bible as a divine Book from Allah. It is not necessary from only the Bible but any verse from anywhere will be acceptable to a Muslims if it conform to the Quran [Muhammad's] in context.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-09-2017 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:09 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are pulling a fast one again.
No. I am trying to make you understand something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my usual response to the above kind of views;

It is true the DEEN [so named Islam] was practiced by humans since Adam till Muhammad's time. But all the previous texts were corrupted [as claimed] thus there is nothing that can represent the original Islam-of-old at all.
That view is in ignorance of of the fact that Jews and Christians can still keep up with their books in hand but are also required to believe in the Qur'aan too. Nowhere in the Qur'aan everything in the whole Bible is rejected as corrupted. So your view is a misconception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only set of texts that can represent the MESSAGE [Islam] of Allah is the Quran revealed to Muhammad during the period 710 AD to 732 AD via angel Gabriel.
The Qur'aan verifies quite a lot of what is in the texts of the previous books. Therefore, those texts are also the MESSAGE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran is based on recitations that Muhammad declared are "Surahs" from Allah he got from Angel Gabriel. Thus the 114 chapters of Surah are the only representative of Islam from Allah.
Islam did not begin with the text of the Qur'aan but with the command/message to Adam and carried on with the command to Abraham to circumcise himself and Ishmael. This text about circumcision is not in the Qur'aan. Muslims still circumcise their male babies. Do you still think that no text in the Bible is valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above may refer to some valid texts that could be valid as some point in time in the past,
But in accordance from the Islamic-box AT PRESENT [2016], it is irrelevant to refer to any other religious texts existing at present as valid, even the ones that has connections with Islam in the past, because they are all corrupted [as claimed in the Quran].
Stop making such false claims about the Qur'aan! The Qur'aan does not claim that ALL previous texts are corrupted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Will Muslims at present accept the various existing Bibles [OT and NT] wholly as a Book that is Islamic in accordance to 2:285?
No way!!
Muslims have the Qur'aan. It confirms what was revealed to Moses and Jesus. Nothing is said to Muhammad that was not said to Moses and Jesus and other messengers. Therefore the text of the Qur'aan is the message to previous messengers too. I have read the Gospels and the main books of Moses. I see no corruption in the OT except just one word which does not make much difference to our fundamental belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is because the present Bible is not the same as the original revelation that was revealed by Allah as it contain corrupted verses, such as those re sonship, trinity, crucifixion, etc.
In those books, not everything is Allah's word but Allah's words are not corrupted. Sunship, trinity and crucifixion is misunderstood by people. Corruption is not in Allah's words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
At most the Muslims can only agree with any specific verses that conform to the Quran but not the Bible as a divine Book from Allah. It is not necessary from only the Bible but any verse from anywhere will be acceptable to a Muslims if it conform to the Quran [Muhammad's] in context.
This is why you can't claim that ALL the text of the Bible is corrupted. Can you quote any of the Allah's words in the Bible that you think are corrupted?
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. I am trying to make you understand something.

That view is in ignorance of of the fact that Jews and Christians can still keep up with their books in hand but are also required to believe in the Qur'aan too. Nowhere in the Qur'aan everything in the whole Bible is rejected as corrupted. So your view is a misconception.

The Qur'aan verifies quite a lot of what is in the texts of the previous books. Therefore, those texts are also the MESSAGE.

Islam did not begin with the text of the Qur'aan but with the command/message to Adam and carried on with the command to Abraham to circumcise himself and Ishmael. This text about circumcision is not in the Qur'aan. Muslims still circumcise their male babies. Do you still think that no text in the Bible is valid?

Stop making such false claims about the Qur'aan! The Qur'aan does not claim that ALL previous texts are corrupted.

Muslims have the Qur'aan. It confirms what was revealed to Moses and Jesus. Nothing is said to Muhammad that was not said to Moses and Jesus and other messengers. Therefore the text of the Qur'aan is the message to previous messengers too. I have read the Gospels and the main books of Moses. I see no corruption in the OT except just one word which does not make much difference to our fundamental belief.

In those books, not everything is Allah's word but Allah's words are not corrupted. Sunship, trinity and crucifixion is misunderstood by people. Corruption is not in Allah's words.

This is why you can't claim that ALL the text of the Bible is corrupted. Can you quote any of the Allah's words in the Bible that you think are corrupted?
There is a miscommunication here.

Even with the Quran mentioned the Torah and Injil, at present no one can make the statement;
"The Bible per-se is Islamic"
Meaning you cannot hold up the Bible and say,
"this Bible is Islamic."

However we may refer to each individual verses in the Bible and reconcile them with the Quran and assert whether the specific verse is in alignment with the Quran.
As I said this is no big deal because any statement from anywhere can be reconciled with verses in the Quran. This is what many Muslims do with Scientific theories and other sources of knowledge.

Quote:
In those books, not everything is Allah's word but Allah's words are not corrupted. Sonship, trinity and crucifixion is misunderstood by people. Corruption is not in Allah's words.
But the point is according to the Christians the concepts of sonship, trinity and crucifixion are an imperative part of the Bible.
These concepts are the message from the God of the Christians. As far as the Christians are concept these are not corruption of God's words at all.

Quote:
Allah's words are not corrupted. Corruption is not in Allah's words.
What are you talking about?
Obviously the original words from Allah to the prophet or messengers are not corrupted.

However as the words and texts are communicated and translated from generations to generations the final outcome is different from the original revelation.
Therefore the final outcome is corrupted.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-10-2017 at 10:14 PM..
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a miscommunication here.

Even with the Quran mentioned the Torah and Injil, at present no one can make the statement;
"The Bible per-se is Islamic"
Meaning you cannot hold up the Bible and say,
"this Bible is Islamic."

However we may refer to each individual verses in the Bible and reconcile them with the Quran and assert whether the specific verse is in alignment with the Quran.
As I said this is no big deal because any statement from anywhere can be reconciled with verses in the Quran. This is what many Muslims do with Scientific theories and other sources of knowledge.

But the point is according to the Christians the concepts of sonship, trinity and crucifixion are an imperative part of the Bible.
These concepts are the message from the God of the Christians. As far as the Christians are concept these are not corruption of God's words at all.

What are you talking about?
Obviously the original words from Allah to the prophet or messengers are not corrupted.

However as the words and texts are communicated and translated from generations to generations the final outcome is different from the original revelation.
Therefore the final outcome is corrupted.
An important thing to remember regarding:

Quote:
Even with the Quran mentioned the Torah and Injil,
The Inil is not found in the Bible. It no longer exists. It was never preserved. Although there is a possibility that some portions of the Bible contain quotes from the Injil. But without the Injil to compare with it, we can not be certain.

Islam is a verb not a noun. You have to do Islam. Without the action you are not doing Islam. Reading the Qur'an can be an act of Islam, depending on the intentions. Likewise reading the Bible or the Tanakh or listening to a Torah recitation can be doing Islam depending upon the intent.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:52 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There is a miscommunication here.

Even with the Quran mentioned the Torah and Injil, at present no one can make the statement;
"The Bible per-se is Islamic"
Meaning you cannot hold up the Bible and say,
"this Bible is Islamic."
Do you even know what is meant by "Islamic"? When they were churning out daily the phrase "Islamic terrorists", what did they mean by "Islamic" in "Islamic terrorists"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However we may refer to each individual verses in the Bible and reconcile them with the Quran and assert whether the specific verse is in alignment with the Quran.
As I said this is no big deal because any statement from anywhere can be reconciled with verses in the Quran. This is what many Muslims do with Scientific theories and other sources of knowledge.
You misunderstand the point of discussion. We are not talking about the verses of the Bible but the words of Allah. We are not talking about aligning any verses of the Qur'aan with the Gospels or the Torah but what is said by Allah in the previous revelations and in the revelation of the Qur'aan. Muslims do believe what Allah had said to Abraham in Genesis 17:10-11. This has not been repeated in the Qur'aan. Therefore, it is not about comparing the verses in the Bible with the verses of the Qur'aan or vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But the point is according to the Christians the concepts of sonship, trinity and crucifixion are an imperative part of the Bible.
Irrelevant. It is not about what Christians or Muslims say but what Allah/God said that is relevant for this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
These concepts are the message from the God of the Christians.
These "concepts" are not from God but from the Christians. Can't you tell the difference between a "message" and a "concept"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As far as the Christians are concept these are not corruption of God's words at all.
Who cares what the Christians are saying such as "Jesus is God" but God never said that Jesus is God nor did Jesus. So you have no idea about the difference between "Message" of God and "concept" of humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What are you talking about?
Obviously the original words from Allah to the prophet or messengers are not corrupted.
that's right; we believe in words from Allah and that isn't the same as concepts of humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However as the words and texts are communicated and translated from generations to generations the final outcome is different from the original revelation.
Therefore the final outcome is corrupted.
To qualify your "concept", can you give me an example of the text (of the Message) that is corrupted?
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Do you even know what is meant by "Islamic"? When they were churning out daily the phrase "Islamic terrorists", what did they mean by "Islamic" in "Islamic terrorists"?
The point that you are asking the question reveal you don't know what is meant by 'Islamic.'

Islam is a religion [deen] with a set of doctrines that comply with the Quran [ideally 100%].
Therefore any doctrine [concepts and practices] that comply with the Quran is 'Islamic.'

I will throw the question back to you. Do you even know what is meant by "Islamic"?


Quote:
You misunderstand the point of discussion. We are not talking about the verses of the Bible but the words of Allah. We are not talking about aligning any verses of the Qur'aan with the Gospels or the Torah but what is said by Allah in the previous revelations and in the revelation of the Qur'aan. Muslims do believe what Allah had said to Abraham in Genesis 17:10-11. This has not been repeated in the Qur'aan. Therefore, it is not about comparing the verses in the Bible with the verses of the Qur'aan or vice versa.

Irrelevant. It is not about what Christians or Muslims say but what Allah/God said that is relevant for this discussion.
You are way off target here.
No one knows the real words of Allah except the messenger.
The only way to know what is the words of Allah is what is written in texts [kept in memory] as recited by the Messenger to his scribes and others who remember and recorded it.

Take note of this reality;
Allah may have revealed the original revelation, i.e. the Torah 5000+ thousand years ago [3000 BC] to Moses in tablets or orally.
Now what is kept in texts up to 2,900 BC is likely be 100% the same as the Original Revelation by Allah.
But the reality is there could be fires that burnt all the texts or most of them are lost for various reasons between 2,900 and 2,800 BC.
So the texts has to be rewritten from memories.
At this point the new texts can be corrupted to various reasons, bad memories or other people with vested reasons to change.

2,800 BC is totally different from now. There is no printing press and all copies available can be destroyed due to various reasons, fire, wars, etc.

Thus from 2,800 BC, the Original Words of Allah in the Original Revelations would have changed many times in many occasions.

Thus the current Torah in 2017 is not likely to be the same as the Original Revelation that was revealed to Moses 5000 years ago.

It is the same with the Injil which was changed from the original revelation from Allah

So in principle there is no way for the texts in Torah and Injil at present in 2017 to be 100% the same as the Original Revelation directly from Allah to the prophets or messenger.

Do you agree with this?

But for the Quran, it is claimed to be 100% the same as the Original Revelation revealed to Muhammad from 610 to 632 AD through Angel Gabriel.

Because there is no way to verify any verse is the Original Revelation, the only way to confirm whatever from the Torah and Injil as Islamic is to confirm with the present Quran.

I understand why you are still so confused.

I believed as in the past you have argued 'circumcision' [in the Torah] is not in the Quran but it is Allah's words.
My argument is how do you know it is 'your' Allah's words i.e. Islamic?
How?
It is very possible Allah did not mention 'circumcision' in the Original Torah at all, but the practice of circumcision was added later [as explained above].


Quote:
These "concepts" are not from God but from the Christians. Can't you tell the difference between a "message" and a "concept"?

Who cares what the Christians are saying such as "Jesus is God" but God never said that Jesus is God nor did Jesus. So you have no idea about the difference between "Message" of God and "concept" of humans.
You are confused here.
The Christians will definitely claim the message [containing doctrines and concepts] in the Gospels are directly from God without corruption.
You as Muslim will disagree with the Christians re above.
The Question is who is right and who is wrong? and
Who are you to insist the Christians are wrong.

Within the Christian-box, the Christians will claim they are right.
Within the Islam-box, the Muslims will claim they are right.
However no Christians nor Muslims can stand inside their box and insist the other is wrong.

One thing is for sure, Muhammad did a quickie job by plagiarizing doctrines, concepts and ideas from the Jews, the Christians, other religions during his time and came out with his own Quran. The Quran itself is a messy job which unfortunately included evil laden elements that inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence. The proofs and evidence for this is so glaring.

Quote:
that's right; we believe in words from Allah and that isn't the same as concepts of humans.
That is the point, within the Islamic-box, you must believe the Quran are the words from Allah, otherwise your faith will not work.
But from the reality-box outside the Islamic-box, the Quran is authored by human[s] and not a God.

Quote:
To qualify your "concept", can you give me an example of the text (of the Message) that is corrupted?
I have given you examples such as sonship, trinity and crucifixion which are corruption from the Islamic-box and Islamic-Allah views.
From the Islamic-box, Muslims will claim that Allah did not mention sonship, trinity and crucifixion to Jesus [as prophet] ~2000 years ago.
The existence of such concepts of sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the present Bibles proved beyond reasonable doubts that the injil was changed between 40AD and 2017.
We do not precisely 'When' and 'How' but the existence sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the present Bible which are definitely not concepts [in message] of Allah proved and confirmed the changes had taken place.

Note the Torah also has the concept of sonship, re Ezra. I have compiled a listing of doctrines from the Torah which are in conflict with the Quran somewhere [don't have it on hand].

Because of the above corruptions and others, Muslims must therefore reject the whole Bible because you don't know what else was added.
The only way to find out what is Islamic is to ensure whatever the verse from Torah and Bible comply with the Quran.
The other means is to request Allah to appear empirically and confirmed what he revealed to Moses and Jesus originally. This cannot be done. If Allah is all-powerful Allah should appear to resolve such a complicated problem to result is the killings of Jews, Christians and Muslims.

In a way [Islamic-box view], the Torah and Bible can be treated as equivalent to the Ahadiths and thus cannot be treated as totally from Allah.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:08 AM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDXNative2Houston View Post
May Allah (swt) make you a better Muslim than me.
If that everyone understands the meaning of this verse, he would not accept Islam
وان منكم لواردها وكان امر ربك حكما مقضيا
Now that the Khalievh and woodrow, they do not know the Islamic religion
Because both deny the duty of jihad
I think that those who deny the duty of jihad, it is not a true Muslim
2-But the sterile debate and twisting and turning, it is not the style of the truth
And both are incapable of definition of gin in verse
What created the jinn and mankind except to worship
The question is, before I get into the details of worship
Who is the jinn
Is he an angel or is the fact
If the Faerie creature with human Where is the jinn
3-Now that the Muslims worship God this is contrary to fact
Proof
I believe in God, a God of one
Is the Muslim faith accept this
Must righteous Khalifa and woodrow
Submit that the answer to this questions
So we know that the dialogue is not futile
Questions and clear
1. Who is the jinn
2 - Is it enough faith in God alone until he became a believer in God
Will my words clear
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:05 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The point that you are asking the question reveal you don't know what is meant by 'Islamic.'
The way non-Muslim politicians, Bush and Blair, have been using it, it is obvious that Muslims like me have no idea what is meant by Bush and Blair to be "Islamic". Now you are thinking the same way as they did. Let's see if they were right and you are right:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam is a religion [deen] with a set of doctrines that comply with the Quran [ideally 100%].
Therefore any doctrine [concepts and practices] that comply with the Quran is 'Islamic.'
Practice of killing peaceful people does not comply with the Qur'aan. Therefore terrorists who kill peaceful people like those 143 children in a school in Peshawar were never "Islamic" and, therefore, never "Islamic terrorists".

Agreed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I will throw the question back to you. Do you even know what is meant by "Islamic"?
Anything within the principles of Islam and never outside the principles of Islam is "Islamic". Let me know if this was too complicated for you and you want me to spoon feed you, I will put it in different words that will mean the same as above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are way off target here.
No one knows the real words of Allah except the messenger.
The only way to know what is the words of Allah is what is written in texts [kept in memory] as recited by the Messenger to his scribes and others who remember and recorded it.
That's fine in case of the Qur'aan but in case of the other texts, sunnah related to circumcision text is the best proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Take note of this reality;
Allah may have revealed the original revelation, i.e. the Torah 5000+ thousand years ago [3000 BC] to Moses in tablets or orally.
Now what is kept in texts up to 2,900 BC is likely be 100% the same as the Original Revelation by Allah.
But the reality is there could be fires that burnt all the texts or most of them are lost for various reasons between 2,900 and 2,800 BC.
So the texts has to be rewritten from memories.
At this point the new texts can be corrupted to various reasons, bad memories or other people with vested reasons to change.

2,800 BC is totally different from now. There is no printing press and all copies available can be destroyed due to various reasons, fire, wars, etc.

Thus from 2,800 BC, the Original Words of Allah in the Original Revelations would have changed many times in many occasions.

Thus the current Torah in 2017 is not likely to be the same as the Original Revelation that was revealed to Moses 5000 years ago.
The Qur'aan has verified what was revealed to Moses and Jesus and that nothing has been revealed to Muhammad that was not revealed to the previous messengers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is the same with the Injil which was changed from the original revelation from Allah
Injil was never preserved from the outset. In the Gospels are only some of the sayings of Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So in principle there is no way for the texts in Torah and Injil at present in 2017 to be 100% the same as the Original Revelation directly from Allah to the prophets or messenger.
There is no proof one way or the other but critical message is confirmed by the Qur'aan which has been preserved since it was revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
But for the Quran, it is claimed to be 100% the same as the Original Revelation revealed to Muhammad from 610 to 632 AD through Angel Gabriel.
And the previous ones confirmed in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Because there is no way to verify any verse is the Original Revelation, the only way to confirm whatever from the Torah and Injil as Islamic is to confirm with the present Quran.
Partly yes but through the sunnah as well. Sunnah of circumcision does not depend on only the text being original but something that has been ongoing well before Moses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I understand why you are still so confused.
You understand wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believed as in the past you have argued 'circumcision' [in the Torah] is not in the Quran but it is Allah's words.
My argument is how do you know it is 'your' Allah's words i.e. Islamic?
How?
It is very possible Allah did not mention 'circumcision' in the Original Torah at all, but the practice of circumcision was added later [as explained above].
What is your basis to doubt this practice may have been added later? Later than when/what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are confused here.
The Christians will definitely claim the message [containing doctrines and concepts] in the Gospels are directly from God without corruption.
Jesus being God (in Trinity) and crucifixion could not have been from God as Jesus never said that he is God and he never said that he was crucified. Therefore, these two doctrines/concepts are neither from God nor from Jesus. See, I am not confused but you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You as Muslim will disagree with the Christians re above.
The Question is who is right and who is wrong? and
Who are you to insist the Christians are wrong.
Anything that is not from God and not the words of Jesus is only from Christians. To begin with, God never told followers of Jesus (Disciples) that they are "Christians". Jesus never told them that they are "Christians". It was Christians who called themselves Christians. This concept of being "Christians" is not from God but from Christians themselves.

Somethings should be obvious to you but you argue in ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Within the Christian-box, the Christians will claim they are right.
Within the Islam-box, the Muslims will claim they are right.
However no Christians nor Muslims can stand inside their box and insist the other is wrong.
We all (Christians and Muslims) know that you are wrong in your infidel box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One thing is for sure, Muhammad did a quickie job by plagiarizing doctrines, concepts and ideas from the Jews, the Christians, other religions during his time and came out with his own Quran.
He must have been a genius to even have done so as you imagine. You will fail miserably if you tried to do the same. One thing is sure a man unable to read or write could not have produced the Qur'aan without the Divine help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran itself is a messy job which unfortunately included evil laden elements that inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence. The proofs and evidence for this is so glaring.
You contradict yourself here. If it is messy to you, it is not clear to you. Anything that is not clear to you, you cannot have a clear understanding of it. If you do not have clear understanding of it, your judgement of it is in ignorance about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the point, within the Islamic-box, you must believe the Quran are the words from Allah, otherwise your faith will not work.
But from the reality-box outside the Islamic-box, the Quran is authored by human[s] and not a God.
Your view about the Qur'aan is neither from reality box nor from the knowledge box but from the ignorance about the Qur'aan box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have given you examples such as sonship, trinity and crucifixion which are corruption from the Islamic-box and Islamic-Allah views.
From the Islamic-box, Muslims will claim that Allah did not mention sonship, trinity and crucifixion to Jesus [as prophet] ~2000 years ago.
The existence of such concepts of sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the present Bibles proved beyond reasonable doubts that the injil was changed between 40AD and 2017.
We do not precisely 'When' and 'How' but the existence sonship, trinity and crucifixion in the present Bible which are definitely not concepts [in message] of Allah proved and confirmed the changes had taken place.
To begin with, nothing was written in presence of Jesus. Gospel of Jesus (Injeel = Evangel) was not in text but was only preached verbally by Jesus as his God had commanded him to do.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Torah also has the concept of sonship, re Ezra. I have compiled a listing of doctrines from the Torah which are in conflict with the Quran somewhere [don't have it on hand].
Again, you are making statements in ignorance. Ezra came much later than Moses. By then, Moses had already died. There is no mention of Ezra in the Torah given to Moses. Ezra as son of God is a later doctrine/concept just as Son of God about Jesus is a later doctrine/concept.

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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Because of the above corruptions and others, Muslims must therefore reject the whole Bible because you don't know what else was added.
These concepts are not in the text but developed later on.

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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only way to find out what is Islamic is to ensure whatever the verse from Torah and Bible comply with the Quran.
You haven't quoted even one verse of the Torah given to Moses and the Injil preached by Jesus to show us that it does not comply with the Qur'aan.

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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The other means is to request Allah to appear empirically and confirmed what he revealed to Moses and Jesus originally. This cannot be done. If Allah is all-powerful Allah should appear to resolve such a complicated problem to result is the killings of Jews, Christians and Muslims.
All the answers are in the Qur'aan. You are making empty claims without quoting any verse that contradicts the Qur'aan.

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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In a way [Islamic-box view], the Torah and Bible can be treated as equivalent to the Ahadiths and thus cannot be treated as totally from Allah.
That is a separate issue. In the rewritten Torah and in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, there are words from Allah and the human narrators (authors). Allah's words can still be identified out of the lot.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:33 PM
 
2,050 posts, read 661,767 times
Reputation: 204
]Whoever believes in Islam is an Islamic
And all the terrorism comes from the Koran is the Islamic
Because here is a close relationship between man and faith
Islamic terrorism is based on the Koran
The Muslim believes that the Quran is the word of God
The Koran says that polytheists impure
So is Islamic terrorism par excellence-------------------------


Polytheists and infidels do not want to fight with Muslims
But the Koran issued orders to fight these
So the result that the Koran calls for peaceful fight
Agreed?
---------------------------


We Christians do not say that the Gospel is coming down from God
But Christian says that the Gospel was written by the disciples of Christ
And this is the truth
The Christian does not believe in the download
Because it is a myth and a lie coined by Muhammad even wash people's minds
--------------------------





You do not have the right to prevent faith in any way
And you are not an agent of God
I say that God is three persons
And you have to discuss and dialogue
And either to issue orders to kill me, this is false
Islam and void for this reason

-----------------------
We all (Christians and Muslims) know that you are wrong in your infidel box.[/quote]Christian agrees with the infidel
The question of Islam
Infidel ball dose not ordered the killing and fighting
For this infidel owns more than honesty of Muhammad



You contradict yourself here. If it is messy to you, it is not clear to you. Anything that is not clear to you, you cannot have a clear understanding of it. If you do not have clear understanding of it, your judgement of it is in ignorance about it.

Your view about the Qur'aan is neither from reality box nor from the knowledge box but from the ignorance about the Qur'aan box.

To begin with, nothing was written in presence of Jesus. Gospel of Jesus (Injeel = Evangel) was not in text but was only preached verbally by Jesus as his God had commanded him to do.

John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Again, you are making statements in ignorance. Ezra came much later than Moses. By then, Moses had already died. There is no mention of Ezra in the Torah given to Moses. Ezra as son of God is a later doctrine/concept just as Son of God about Jesus is a later doctrine/concept.

These concepts are not in the text but developed later on.

You haven't quoted even one verse of the Torah given to Moses and the Injil preached by Jesus to show us that it does not comply with the Qur'aan.

All the answers are in the Qur'aan. You are making empty claims without quoting any verse that contradicts the Qur'aan.

That is a separate issue. In the rewritten Torah and in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, there are words from Allah and the human narrators (authors). Allah's words can still be identified out of the lot.[/quote]
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