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Okay, first off, This is not a urban vs suburban thing. This is much more of a JoCo (with lots of help from Topeka) vs KCMO thing. Big difference. I know that JoCo people seem to forget or just ignore the fact that there are 3/4 of a million people in the Missouri suburbs (that have just as many affluent areas, good schools etc as JoCo). Suburbs like Lee's Summit, Blue Springs and the Northland seem to exist and grow just fine without acting like fierce competitors with KCMO. They actually cooperate with the city and other MO side counties far more often than they compete and when they do compete, they do so in a much more civilized manor. Lee's Summit is not going to offer Hallmark 60 million to move there. But JoCo would in a heartbeat if they thought they could get them.
There is only one reason that companies are moving to JoCo. MONEY. It's not the freaking schools or the bike trails. It's MONEY. Companies don't give a crap about schools. Every large city in the country has troubled urban schools and guess what, they still have thriving downtowns or other urban business centers. Most people that work at some office building in OP, don't live in that specific school district. Half of JoCo workers commute from MO. And even if schools did matter, DOWNTOWN KC IS SURROUNDED IN ALL DIRECTIONS BY GOOD SUBURBAN SCHOOLS with some of the best districts in the metro being just 5-10 minutes north of the river. JoCo is not the only place in metro KC with good schools. Companies move to JoCo for the cheap office parks, often 100% tax payer funded. So while JoCo is giving away 50 million to poach AMC, suburbs like Liberty, Blue Springs and Lee's Summit raise their sale tax to fund the KC Zoo (the zoo is as close to most of JoCo then to most MO suburbs). Those suburbs also fund the stadiums and other cultural attractions that JoCo people love to claim as there own. (go chiefs! they say!) Now tell me which suburbs are better for the metro area as a whole?
Now lets get on with the importance of JoCo...
Would metro KC be worse off today without JoCo? Yes, of course it would. Metro KC would be completely devastated if it lost 1/4 of its population and 40% of its economy.
Does that mean that if JoCo did not exist today that metro KC would be in worse shape? Absolutely not. Metro KC was a top 20 city before JoCo came along and it has only lost ground on a national scale since JoCo began to morph from a bedroom suburb (Prairie Village, Mission etc) into a mega corporate suburb in the late 70's building millions of sq ft of office parks and filling them with companies from KCMO and KCK.
If you filled JoCo with water in 1930 and never developed it, I actually think that metro KC would actually be LARGER today. Downtown would be bigger, more vibrant, the MO side suburbs would twice as populated, but still would have half the office space that JoCo has today. Metro KC would be much more powerfull in Jeff City. The area would have close to 2 million people on one side of the state line and because of that, it would probably have a 50-70 mile light rail system today because it would be on the same page and GET ALONG and do whats in the best interest of the METRO AREA!
Kansas would actually have to take care of KCK rather than just subsidizing sprawl. So maybe KCK today would be more like a St Paul, MN or Covington, KY and be complimenting urban companion to KCMO rather than a run down embarrassment with a bunch of subsidized sprawl 15 miles west of the city.
With no JoCo, the Royals and Chiefs would still be just fine, the art musuems and preforming arts would be just fine.
Metro KC would be a better place today.
With JoCo, metro KC has more similarities to Detroit than to Denver or Minneapolis. Sad thing is that JoCo could actually co-exist with KCMO, even as a county of 600,000. They could actually enhance the metro. They just choose not to. They want to be their own city. They want KC to be the JoCo metro area. Metro KC is worse off with that way of thinking.
With JoCo, metro KC has more similarities to Detroit than to Denver or Minneapolis. Sad thing is that JoCo could actually co-exist with KCMO, even as a county of 600,000. They could actually enhance the metro. They just choose not to. They want to be their own city. They want KC to be the JoCo metro area. Metro KC is worse off with that way of thinking.
I think that Minneapolis and similar cities have a lot more "trendy" factor to them than KC because of this. I like trendy cities with a lot going on...I do think that KC has that, but I see so many people in JoCo who don't want to go out and enjoy the city nightlife, etc. Where I live, most of the people don't want to even go out after dark...and I have tried to convince people to come to the P+L and Westport more than a few times. Maybe it's because there are a lot of families here and a smaller population of single professionals and DINKs.
I think that Minneapolis and similar cities have a lot more "trendy" factor to them than KC because of this. I like trendy cities with a lot going on...I do think that KC has that, but I see so many people in JoCo who don't want to go out and enjoy the city nightlife, etc. Where I live, most of the people don't want to even go out after dark...and I have tried to convince people to come to the P+L and Westport more than a few times. Maybe it's because there are a lot of families here and a smaller population of single professionals and DINKs.
I think much of it has to do with the built environment of JOCO. Everything is spread out. JOCO demographics are diverging from the Midwest as the population under age 18 is now quite a bit above average. This is mirroring more of a Sunbelt growth dynamic combined with social conservatism, similar to what you would find in parts of Texas. The difference is that JOCO now has much older suburbs with older populations relative to other suburban counties with most of their growth happening within the last few decades. I guarantee you that more people would be inclined to leave their neighborhoods if more neighborhood taverns and bars existed- instead of being mostly in strip malls. In most of the Midwest that neighborhood watering hole thrives very well and they are everywhere.
kcmo, it sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to coexist with Johnson County, not vice versa. All you ever have to say about Johnson County is bad. The truth is, without Johnson County, KCMO wouldn't be doing nearly so well. They just wouldn't. You can protest all you want, but that's the truth.
When I was a kid in the 60s, there wasn't such a hatred toward Johnson County. I grew up knowing a pretty well to do architect who lived in Johnson County, worked in Kansas City, Missouri, and contributed a lot to both KCMO and Johnson County. He is the one who introduced me to everything Kansas City on both sides of the state line. In Missouri, he took me to the American Royal, the Kansas City Zoo, the Philharmonic, to Barnum & Bailey circus, Benjamin stables. In Kansas, he took me to Milburn and Tomahawk Country Club to swim and sled, to Shawnee Mission Park on paddle boats, horseback riding, and King Louie to ice skate.
kcmo, you apparently have had an attitude against Johnson County since your childhood. I didn't really have negative thoughts about KCMO growing up. But I knew Johnson County was a great place to live and knew that's where I wanted to live when I got older. It was when I grew up and lived there that I knew I didn't want to live in KCMO. If other people want to, that's fine. Just not for me.
Missouri side born and raised and lived in Joco for 3 years in the 80s and loved it. There are neighborhoods I would live in KCMO also all things considered and I am happy as a lark to read here of the rehabbing of Downtown, which was a pit during that same time I was in Joco. Nevertheless, Joco is part of the Metro, a big part and a huge contibutor to the economy and quality of life in Greater KC. Those of you denigrating Joco are simply wrong IMO. Each of us has our preferences on where to live, work, send kids to schools etc, but Joco provides(d) an outlet to develop a strong suburban living and school system while KC was in decline. And this model pretty much happened in every major US city I'd bet.
kcmo, it sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to coexist with Johnson County, not vice versa. All you ever have to say about Johnson County is bad. The truth is, without Johnson County, KCMO wouldn't be doing nearly so well. They just wouldn't. You can protest all you want, but that's the truth.
When I was a kid in the 60s, there wasn't such a hatred toward Johnson County. I grew up knowing a pretty well to do architect who lived in Johnson County, worked in Kansas City, Missouri, and contributed a lot to both KCMO and Johnson County. He is the one who introduced me to everything Kansas City on both sides of the state line. In Missouri, he took me to the American Royal, the Kansas City Zoo, the Philharmonic, to Barnum & Bailey circus, Benjamin stables. In Kansas, he took me to Milburn and Tomahawk Country Club to swim and sled, to Shawnee Mission Park on paddle boats, horseback riding, and King Louie to ice skate.
kcmo, you apparently have had an attitude against Johnson County since your childhood. I didn't really have negative thoughts about KCMO growing up. But I knew Johnson County was a great place to live and knew that's where I wanted to live when I got older. It was when I grew up and lived there that I knew I didn't want to live in KCMO. If other people want to, that's fine. Just not for me.
First off, I don't care if you like JoCo. Just like you don't care where I like to live. You liking JoCo has absolutely NOTHING to do with what my last post stated. I never discounted or disagreed with anybody liking where they live. Johnson County is a nice suburb and obviously lots of people like living there, just like it's obvious that lots of people like living in KCMO and the MO side suburbs. Can you at least TRY to comprehend my posts which are about (Kansas City, not you) rather than just posting another copy of how you hate urban areas and love joco? I'm talking about how KC grows and how the area interacts across the metro area and how it does not act like one metro area. There is an anti urban or anti city mentality in metro KC (from both residents and businesses) that is worse than most areas I have lived or visited. Here in DC people tend to like the city and rarely talk down about it. Even Baltimore often gets more love from suburbanites than KCMO does from Kansans. KC is a different place. But yes, I know, you like Johnson County!
Oh and BTW, I barely knew JoCo existed till I was probably 17 or 18 years old and had nothing at all against the place till I started interacting more and more with the place and its residents and watching it indirectly harm the place I did up grow in. And I didn't need anybody to show me around KCMO, I was there and could walk or take a bus to most places you were "introduced" to. Once I got a car, I introduced myself to JoCo and its malls, parks etc
Funny thing is that despite having such a rival enemy in its back yard, Kansas City, Missouri is actually doing alright today. It has its problems and would be a much better city if Kansas was not such a leach, but for the cards KCMO has been dealt with geography and politics the city is in pretty good shape and still has plenty to offer. Right now KC just needs more of the business community to step up to the plate. That is where KC is suffering the most now. The regional corporate community of KC has turned its back on the urban core and the one company left that really cares about KC (Hallmark) is probably not going to be able to do as much as it has in the past much longer as demand for greeting cards decreases. KC needs more companies with civic pride that won't take blank checks and run off to Kansas or simply companies that have more interest in the city. I see such corporate pride in nearly every city today except KC (outside Hallmark and maybe a few others) and it makes a big difference. Never in my dreams did I think that after kcmo spent six billion dollars on downtown revitalization that they would still actually lose more businesses than they gained. I thought for sure, KC would have seen more positive response from what is probably the biggest turnaround of a downtown in the country over the past decade.
First off, I don't care if you like JoCo. Just like you don't care where I like to live. You liking JoCo has absolutely NOTHING to do with what my last post stated. I never discounted or disagreed with anybody liking where they live. Johnson County is a nice suburb and obviously lots of people like living there, just like it's obvious that lots of people like living in KCMO and the MO side suburbs. Can you at least TRY to comprehend my posts which are about (Kansas City, not you) rather than just posting another copy of how you hate urban areas and love joco? I'm talking about how KC grows and how the area interacts across the metro area and how it does not act like one metro area. There is an anti urban or anti city mentality in metro KC (from both residents and businesses) that is worse than most areas I have lived or visited. Here in DC people tend to like the city and rarely talk down about it. Even Baltimore often gets more love from suburbanites than KCMO does from Kansans. KC is a different place. But yes, I know, you like Johnson County!
Oh and BTW, I barely knew JoCo existed till I was probably 17 or 18 years old and had nothing at all against the place till I started interacting more and more with the place and its residents and watching it indirectly harm the place I did up grow in. And I didn't need anybody to show me around KCMO, I was there and could walk or take a bus to most places you were "introduced" to. Once I got a car, I introduced myself to JoCo and its malls, parks etc
Funny thing is that despite having such a rival enemy in its back yard, Kansas City, Missouri is actually doing alright today. It has its problems and would be a much better city if Kansas was not such a leach, but for the cards KCMO has been dealt with geography and politics the city is in pretty good shape and still has plenty to offer. Right now KC just needs more of the business community to step up to the plate. That is where KC is suffering the most now. The regional corporate community of KC has turned its back on the urban core and the one company left that really cares about KC (Hallmark) is probably not going to be able to do as much as it has in the past much longer as demand for greeting cards decreases. KC needs more companies with civic pride that won't take blank checks and run off to Kansas or simply companies that have more interest in the city. I see such corporate pride in nearly every city today except KC (outside Hallmark and maybe a few others) and it makes a big difference. Never in my dreams did I think that after kcmo spent six billion dollars on downtown revitalization that they would still actually lose more businesses than they gained. I thought for sure, KC would have seen more positive response from what is probably the biggest turnaround of a downtown in the country over the past decade.
Well, what people in DC do doesn't really dictate what Kansas City should do, does it? We should model ourselves after DC? I don't think so. Like someone else mentioned, downtown KCMO was crap until very recently. No wonder people moved away from there.
You are always touting how other cities are so much better, so much more progressive than Kansas City. Well, so what! If you and they think they are better, great! Go live there and be happy and quit posting here, and let those of us who like living here live in peace.
As to your last two sentences - this is where Kansas City, Missouri doing something to actually attract new businesses and keep current businesses comes in. They lose businesses because they aren't competitive. They lose businesses because obviously the businesses feel it is a better business decision to move elsewhere. If KCMO can't think of ways to make their city more attractive to businesses, that's not Johnson County's fault.
Funny thing is that despite having such a rival enemy in its back yard, Kansas City, Missouri is actually doing alright today. It has its problems and would be a much better city if Kansas was not such a leach, but for the cards KCMO has been dealt with geography and politics the city is in pretty good shape and still has plenty to offer. Right now KC just needs more of the business community to step up to the plate. That is where KC is suffering the most now. The regional corporate community of KC has turned its back on the urban core and the one company left that really cares about KC (Hallmark) is probably not going to be able to do as much as it has in the past much longer as demand for greeting cards decreases. KC needs more companies with civic pride that won't take blank checks and run off to Kansas or simply companies that have more interest in the city. I see such corporate pride in nearly every city today except KC (outside Hallmark and maybe a few others) and it makes a big difference. Never in my dreams did I think that after kcmo spent six billion dollars on downtown revitalization that they would still actually lose more businesses than they gained. I thought for sure, KC would have seen more positive response from what is probably the biggest turnaround of a downtown in the country over the past decade.
"Rival enemy"? Or "Competitor"? Much of what you're accusing Joco of causing is little different from other parts of the USA. What do you expect the middle class to when there's population growth in the cities, problems with crime, higher taxes/fees, and very importantly, the collapse of urban public education? At some point the population spills over, in KC's case, to options up North, out East along I-70 (then 470), or West (35/435). The lack of a southtown expressway made it the least desirable option. Joco was convenient, still close to The Plaza and DT, not a bad commute (at least at one time), had envious public schools, and safer suburban living where people could own houses of their choosing. I see that as much more symbiotic with DT than negative. The professional class in Joco still has a substantial presence DT, a situation not unlike many other major urban areas (e.g. Dallas). Throw in a state line which brings additional pros/cons into the debate and of course you are going to have competition for business, residents, tax base, etc.
I just don't see the vitriol for Joco. That it developed into a very desirable place to live, work, commute, educate, and so forth seems to benefit KC DT. Whatever issues KC faces are similar to other landlocked cities, and Im sure the politicians and self interest types contributed to its decline, that no amount of money was going to bring back its lost vitality. As I've said before, I'm glad DT is trying to bounce back, but some of its problems are huge and inherent and won't go away. Competition is good for the Metro, and it provides options for relocations of businesses and residents, which to me seems like a big advantage vis a vis lots of other metropolitan areas.
Could someone please explain what the benefit is again for AMC moving to JOCO from downtown. If anyone can do that, I would love to know. What did JOCO gain? How could the school system and county possibly benefit from this move? Do you really believe the workers who live in other parts of the metro are going to pack-up and move to JOCO?
I think this move more then anything else, shows what is wrong with the state line.
I have lived in Denver and Seattle over the years and I promise the suburbs there do not do this crap. Especially at the level here.
Ask yourself this, if Kansas wants to give away 40 to 50 million dollars, couldn't it do better then giving it to a company that is owned by a foreign country? Do you really believe that they won't jump at the next offer when this one is up if given the opportunity?
Could someone please explain what the benefit is again for AMC moving to JOCO from downtown. If anyone can do that, I would love to know. What did JOCO gain? How could the school system and county possibly benefit from this move? Do you really believe the workers who live in other parts of the metro are going to pack-up and move to JOCO?
I think this move more then anything else, shows what is wrong with the state line.
I have lived in Denver and Seattle over the years and I promise the suburbs there do not do this crap. Especially at the level here.
Ask yourself this, if Kansas wants to give away 40 to 50 million dollars, couldn't it do better then giving it to a company that is owned by a foreign country? Do you really believe that they won't jump at the next offer when this one is up if given the opportunity?
Way too much corporate welfare period dished out by Kansas. Kansas seems to have forgotten the model that economic growth happens more slowly and organically over time by individuals forming smaller companies that often grow and expand. That is they way it happens in much of the rest of the country. This sheds a new light on "corporate welfare" dependency that the state has. Brownback would rather cut everything else to the bone including education while ignoring the corporate giveaways that come out of everyones paychecks through taxes.
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than Kansas City. Well, so what! If you and they think they are better, great! Go live there and be happy and quit posting here, and let those of us who like living here live in peace.
