homeless people making the sidewalk their home? (Los Angeles, San Francisco: sex offenders, neighborhood)

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by jm1982

The homeless are being arrested for stuff like that because...they are generally the ones doing that. Generally the guy or girl in a business suit running to a meeting isn't going to be loitering or trespassing or drinking a beer out of a brown paper bag on the street, or breaking into homes or cars and stealing stuff. Just facts. Your 'ideal world' of a world where the homeless can just do whatever they want trespass private property,etc with no repercussions whatsoever is a nightmarish world.
One that I'm sure most people actually living in those communities would want. If a man or woman in a business suit is trespassing or loitering or drinking in public I think the cops should stop them too...for the record..

People drink in public all the time ordinary well dressed people. Assuming we are talking about a city ordinance prohibiting consumption of alcohol on a public street or sidewalk, people who are at outdoor cafes regularly break the law by walking away from the patio area onto the public sidewalk with their drink. THAT is drinking in public, it's a violation of the law just as much as a wino sitting on corner drinking out of a short neck in a paper bag is. That's the way the law works, it is supposed to be applied equally and if it's not then people subjected to disparate treatment have the right to sue. So if you want one aspect of that law enforced you have to be willing to impose the same sanctions and treatment for anyone breaking the law.

And please quit telling me about my "ideal world" because you are wrong. I don't like to see homeless people on the streets any more than you do, but I deal with reality not fantasy, and if we are ever going to solve even part of the problem of homelessness we need to start by defining which solutions are legal and go from there.

[jm1982]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

People drink in public all the time ordinary well dressed people. Assuming we are talking about a city ordinance prohibiting consumption of alcohol on a public street or sidewalk, people who are at outdoor cafes regularly break the law by walking away from the patio area onto the public sidewalk with their drink. THAT is drinking in public, it's a violation of the law just as much as a wino sitting on corner drinking out of a short neck in a paper bag is. That's the way the law works, it is supposed to be applied equally and if it's not then people subjected to disparate treatment have the right to sue. So if you want one aspect of that law enforced you have to be willing to impose the same sanctions and treatment for anyone breaking the law.

And please quit telling me about my "ideal world" because you are wrong. I don't like to see homeless people on the streets any more than you do, but I deal with reality not fantasy, and if we are ever going to solve even part of the problem of homelessness we need to start by defining which solutions are legal and go from there.

I see signs posted all the time that alcohol can't leave certain areas.
In L.A I never see people on the sidewalk drinking alcohol.

I do see a lot of homeless people drinking in public though. I even have them doing in front of my house and throwing the empty cans or bottles on the floor. Drinking and public and littering..but you are fine with it because it's the homeless doing it..

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by jm1982

I see signs posted all the time that alcohol can't leave certain areas.
In L.A I never see people on the sidewalk drinking alcohol. I do see a lot of homeless people drinking in public though. I even have them doing in front of my house and throwing the empty cans or bottles on the floor. Drinking and public and littering..but you are fine with it because it's the homeless doing it..

You read the part of my post that you wanted to read and ignored the rest, I give up...have a nice day

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by jm1982

Yeah I just wonder why cities are tolerating the predatory homeless .

Because we have criminals committing far worse offenses than sleeping on the sidewalk, jaywalking or stealing hamburgers?

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

No, you are wrong again. I think what you are hinting at, but can't quite articulate because you don't know anything about it is 'broken windows policing'. What that means is that you stop people for everything; dropping a cigarette butt on the sidewalk, loitering, trespassing, jay walking with the idea that you will then have a legal reason to search them and jack them up and arrest them because according to the theory, if they break little laws then they must be engaged in more serious criminal activity as well. But alas, the reality is something that we knew all along, correlation =/= causation

It's a failed strategy that is very expensive and not very effective. And as it turns out there is an even bigger problem with it, you can't just single out the homeless for 'special treatment' if you want to arrest the homeless for loitering or trespassing then you had better be able to prove that you apply the same standards to everyone in the City or that homeless person will likely get enough money in a civil judgment that they won't have to worry about being homeless for a very long time.

In the real world the one you don't know seem to know much about, most of the time the minor crime a homeless person is guilty of, i.e. loitering is the only offense they have committed, they are not usually dangerous criminals with felony warrants and parole holds- but keep on dreaming, one day you will get it right.

2Sleepy, insulting people doesn't change anything.

And I know exactly what I wanted to say.

People who trespass likely have other issues with the law beyond trespassing, and they often do serious time. Getting busted with drugs, depending on the drug and the quantity can and does get a person SERIOUS TIME. The drug laws are used to clean areas free of undesirables. You can't make it against the law to be homeless, but if they are caught with drugs or dealing drugs you can throw the book at them and this happens often enough.

It's not for nothing that the US has the most people locked up in prison out of any nation in the world.

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

Because we have criminals committing far worse offenses than sleeping on the sidewalk, jaywalking or stealing hamburgers?

Theft is a pretty serious crime, including the stealing of FOOD. The cops came after the guy and arrested them, and I am sure the restaurant pressed charges as they would have had concern for the safety of their employees. This man wouldn't steal from me because I was on to him and I am a 6'2" guy. He stole from the waitress. What if she were leaving work late at night and he approached her at her car as she was trying to get home? What if one of your female relatives were in that circumstances?

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by jm1982

I see signs posted all the time that alcohol can't leave certain areas.
In L.A I never see people on the sidewalk drinking alcohol.

I do see a lot of homeless people drinking in public though. I even have them doing in front of my house and throwing the empty cans or bottles on the floor. Drinking and public and littering..but you are fine with it because it's the homeless doing it..

What would the reaction of these people be if a homeless sex offender assaulted their mother, sister, wife, or daughter?

I wonder if they would have such advocacy for the homeless then?

I wonder if they would then demand that the most cracked out homeless be given a free pass on everything.

Or it's possible some of these people here are the kinds of homeless you speak out against. Between public libraries, free computers at non profits, or internet cafes anyone can go online.

[NyWriterdude]

Originally Posted by jm1982

Yeah I just wonder why cities are tolerating the predatory homeless .

Tired of the politically correct bs that " we are all the same"

Unfortunately some people are just bad people and some evil .

Quite possibly some of the homeless proponents who constantly argue for giving homeless a free pass are these criminals you speak about. Keep in mind people post under anonymous identities here. Nothing prevents a sex offender or drug addict who is always in and out of jail and who is homeless posting from the worksource center, library, or internet cafe from coming on here and saying whatever they want to.

[2sleepy]

[quote=NyWriterdude;45555565]People who trespass likely have other issues with the law beyond trespassing, and they often do serious time. Getting busted with drugs, depending on the drug and the quantity can and does get a person SERIOUS TIME. If homeless people break the law they should be treated just like anyone else, but I was pretty clear, if you don't enforce loitering in the business district you can't legally enforce it in skid row- that is not my decision, it is the result of numerous court decisions.

Originally Posted by NyWriterdude

It's not for nothing that the US has the most people locked up in prison out of any nation in the world.

I'm not sure where you are going with that...from everything I have read we have decided to make incarceration the defacto way of dealing with social problems, I don't think it says anything about the character or morality of our population.

[NyWriterdude]

[quote=2sleepy;45555653]

Originally Posted by NyWriterdude

People who trespass likely have other issues with the law beyond trespassing, and they often do serious time. Getting busted with drugs, depending on the drug and the quantity can and does get a person SERIOUS TIME. If homeless people break the law they should be treated just like anyone else, but I was pretty clear, if you don't enforce loitering in the business district you can't legally enforce it in skid row- that is not my decision, it is the result of numerous court decisions.
I'm not sure where you are going with that...from everything I have read we have decided to make incarceration the defacto way of dealing with social problems, I don't think it says anything about the character or morality of our population.

It's rather obvious where I am going with that.

While they cannot politically lock people up for being homeless, the drug laws and other laws are written in such ways that they can disproportionately lock up homeless and other undesirables (minorities, gays) or otherwise crackdown on them (many gay bars get closed down due to drug raids and other associated crimes).

All in the name of clearing unwanted people out of prime real estate, and you're in denial if you truly think this doesn't work.