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Old 11-16-2023, 08:19 AM
 
10,950 posts, read 6,678,831 times
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Whatever, the point is the government had to force people to enter the military instead of waiting for volunteers. My point was also that military/war (draft) resistance ramped up exponentially in the 1960's. I lived through it. Friends went to Canada, others lived off-grid for years deep in the mountains of Washington, went C.O. (Conscientious Objector), volunteered for V.I.S.T.A. or drew a low lottery number and ended up in the infantry in Viet Nam.

To be honest, I think there is more of a military/government support culture in our society now compared to years ago. Perhaps it's simply because I currently live in the South where more people have family and friends who are in the military.
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Old 11-16-2023, 08:28 AM
 
Location: The City of Brotherly Love
1,295 posts, read 1,213,758 times
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I refuse to fight for this country, as it simply isn't worth fighting for. I have better things to do than to risk my life over something as stupid as "fighting cOmMuNiSm" (Vietnam War), oil (Gulf War), or semiconductors (if we were to go to war with China). The US hasn't fought for a worthy cause since World War II--every incursion the US has been involved in post-WWII has come through sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. I wish the US would mind its own business and focus on domestic issues, as this country isn't even remotely as attractive as it envisions itself to be.
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Old 11-16-2023, 09:24 AM
 
45,263 posts, read 26,754,393 times
Reputation: 23629
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Report: Americans don't want to fight for their country anymore

Have you heard what they teach in schools these days? Have you heard how the higher educational institutions program their students?

How many college age kids and young adults hate America and have a Communist/Marxism filter put on their brains? Today - we see the support for the immoral group of people that is Hamas. That support has to be taught to them.

If they are not redirected at some point - yeah, they see no point in defending America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarzanman View Post
You're way off the mark. It has very little to do with school and a lot to do with risk/reward. A lot of people go in enlisted and come out none the better for wear. Injuries are relatively common and the compensation only makes sense if you don't have any education nor a trade.

Even the service aspect has some pretty big flaws these days. Do you want to put your life on the line to protect worsening wealth inequality and a political system where one of the two dominant parties is trying to marginalize the vote and dismantle democracy? The previous president publicly expressed disdain for veterans and their families. A current legislator is holding promotions hostage for political reasons.

By time you get finish your time defending the property and prosperity of the moneyed class you probably won't be able to afford a house yourself.

If one is going to struggle paycheck to paycheck then there are less hazardous ways to do it than to essentially give up your agency.

I'm not knocking anyone who serves, just pointing out that a career in the armed services is a taller order at this juncture given the economic situation and time/lives/money wasted on aggressive wars in the past two decades.
You aren't getting it. They are being taught to hate America. My college educated son has said this. My sister (who works in education in the DC, MD, VA area) has said this and has flirted with moving overseas. Between education and the media narratives - you have to have a strong mindset to swim upstream and not be affected by the negative spin on America.
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Old 11-16-2023, 10:17 AM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,566,859 times
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
You aren't getting it. They are being taught to hate America. My college educated son has said this. My sister (who works in education in the DC, MD, VA area) has said this and has flirted with moving overseas. Between education and the media narratives - you have to have a strong mindset to swim upstream and not be affected by the negative spin on America.
This is true.
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Old 11-16-2023, 10:39 AM
 
5,895 posts, read 3,163,779 times
Reputation: 10615
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013 View Post
I refuse to fight for this country, as it simply isn't worth fighting for. I have better things to do than to risk my life over something as stupid as "fighting cOmMuNiSm" (Vietnam War), oil (Gulf War), or semiconductors (if we were to go to war with China). The US hasn't fought for a worthy cause since World War II--every incursion the US has been involved in post-WWII has come through sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. I wish the US would mind its own business and focus on domestic issues, as this country isn't even remotely as attractive as it envisions itself to be.
I think you aren’t seeing the big picture and what is actually in play here.

But let’s back up a bit:

Was WWII a worthy cause, or did we drive events to happen which led to Germany and Japan taking hostile action against the US? Did we goad the Germans and the Japanese attack, just like we goaded the Russians into attacking Ukraine, and just like we’ve likely goaded many countries into war?

Back in 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina to ban imports of US weapons to China, which were helping the Chinese in their fight against Japan. This eventually led to us freezing Japanese assets, which cut them off from the oil. Instead of selling weapons to China, what if we would’ve went to Japan and said, ok, we’ll stop doing that. What if we would’ve continued selling the Japanese oil? They would not have attacked Pearl Harbor and we would not have nuked them. Millions of Japanese would not have been killed.

Germany was angry because we kept sending war supplies to England. What if we didn’t do that? Would Germany have declared war on the US?

400,000 US military dead in WWII, and 675,000 wounded. I agree that after we were attacked by Japan and after Germany declared war, we absolutely should have destroyed them and we did.

But my problem with US WWII involvement is that it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

I think you can make a case that every single war the US has been involved in outside our own borders was due to a globalist agenda that has done nothing but destroy our country over time.

I think you can also make the case that the rich, elite industrialists turned to globalism to enrich and empower themselves even more, at the expense of the common man in the US.

Every war since WWII has fell into that category as well.

I’m also fully aware that I have been a part of this military globalism my entire adult life, as was my father and his father, my grandfather, who was part of a tank crew in the European theater during WWII and seen heavy combat.

When I first joined the military, I had no idea about any of this.

So now that I know what the US military is actually all about, and it’s not what we thought it was, I have reconciled it all. My eyes are fully open now, and we are really just an arm of Corporate American industry, operating globally to enhance American business interests abroad.

I’m ok with all of this now that I know what is really going on. The US military is just a chosen profession, not unlike a petroleum engineer who works for Exxon Mobile in one of their global offices abroad.
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Old 11-16-2023, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Between Heaven And Hell.
13,535 posts, read 9,940,045 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
https://www.newsweek.com/american-mi...apathy-1842449

I'm not really surprised. You can't really convince anyone to serve, they either want to or not. Everyone perceives the military as "Full Metal Jacket" or "Saving Private Ryan" so it's no wonder most Americans would prefer to avoid that.
It's not actually fighting for their country though, is it? Unless that is, you see fuel and finance as a reason for it to be about their country.
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Old 11-16-2023, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
Reputation: 19107
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I think you aren’t seeing the big picture and what is actually in play here.

But let’s back up a bit:

Was WWII a worthy cause, or did we drive events to happen which led to Germany and Japan taking hostile action against the US? Did we goad the Germans and the Japanese attack, just like we goaded the Russians into attacking Ukraine, and just like we’ve likely goaded many countries into war?

Back in 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina to ban imports of US weapons to China, which were helping the Chinese in their fight against Japan. This eventually led to us freezing Japanese assets, which cut them off from the oil. Instead of selling weapons to China, what if we would’ve went to Japan and said, ok, we’ll stop doing that. What if we would’ve continued selling the Japanese oil? They would not have attacked Pearl Harbor and we would not have nuked them. Millions of Japanese would not have been killed.

Germany was angry because we kept sending war supplies to England. What if we didn’t do that? Would Germany have declared war on the US?

400,000 US military dead in WWII, and 675,000 wounded. I agree that after we were attacked by Japan and after Germany declared war, we absolutely should have destroyed them and we did.

But my problem with US WWII involvement is that it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

I think you can make a case that every single war the US has been involved in outside our own borders was due to a globalist agenda that has done nothing but destroy our country over time.

I think you can also make the case that the rich, elite industrialists turned to globalism to enrich and empower themselves even more, at the expense of the common man in the US.

Every war since WWII has fell into that category as well.

I’m also fully aware that I have been a part of this military globalism my entire adult life, as was my father and his father, my grandfather, who was part of a tank crew in the European theater during WWII and seen heavy combat.

When I first joined the military, I had no idea about any of this.

So now that I know what the US military is actually all about, and it’s not what we thought it was, I have reconciled it all. My eyes are fully open now, and we are really just an arm of Corporate American industry, operating globally to enhance American business interests abroad.

I’m ok with all of this now that I know what is really going on. The US military is just a chosen profession, not unlike a petroleum engineer who works for Exxon Mobile in one of their global offices abroad.


I agree with some of your analysis in relation to more recent decades, and IMHO, the US made some really bad foreign and defence policy decisions in relation to the more recent post Cold War era.

In terms of Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, the demise of the Warsaw Pact and the end of the Iron Curtain in late 1989 and the early 1990's, the US should have concentrated it's efforts on encouraging the European nations to take charge of their own defence.

Instead the US continually interfered and pushed for the expansion of NATO and the EU, and eventually helped to rekindle the Cold War with Russia, with the likes of Hilary Clinton unable to keep their mouths shut and continually inflaming relations with Putin's Russia.

The US then goes on to accuse others of being free loaders, despite the fact that a lot of of this is down to politicians in Washington DC and US policies in the first place.

In terms of 9/11, the response was again questionable in relation to the Iraq war which had nothing to do with 9/11, and which was later deemed illegal.

As for Afghanistan that was a long drawn out pointless war which lost any real focus in relation to 9/11 and terrorism, and which ended without a proper withdrawal strategy, something that even had echoes of disastrous events in Vietnam.

All that needed to be done in Afghanistan was the destruction of the caves and Al Qaeda type Islamic terrorist groups, and it was pointless trying to build western style democracy in such a religiously and culturally backward nation.

The US is now becoming involved in Taiwan, which the US doesn't have any commitment to defend, with people such as Nancy Pelosi interfering and inflaming the situation in recent years, whilst the frail confused old man in charge can't even remember what the one China policy even is.

As for the Middle East, the Abraham Accords, and the willingness of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and others to work together to counter any Iranian threat and to try and secure peace has been seen as a credible way forward in recent years, and a regional solution is preferable to any US intervention.

The US and it's allies should only really become more involved in the ME region, if Hezbollah and the Iranians become involved, and this should involve support rather than vast numbers of US and allied troops on the ground.

The last thing the US and west needs is to be drawn in to an urban war against terrorists embedded among the civilian population, with a network of tunnels, vast amounts of rockets and IED's as well as other such irregular warfare techniques.

All the US needs to do is to use common sense, however that seems to be lacking among some of those in positions of power in places such as Washington DC, and this has been to the detriment of the ordinary loyal American public.

Last edited by Brave New World; 11-16-2023 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 11-16-2023, 11:43 AM
 
15,086 posts, read 7,133,536 times
Reputation: 18952
Quote:
Originally Posted by WK91 View Post
I think you aren’t seeing the big picture and what is actually in play here.

But let’s back up a bit:

Was WWII a worthy cause, or did we drive events to happen which led to Germany and Japan taking hostile action against the US? Did we goad the Germans and the Japanese attack, just like we goaded the Russians into attacking Ukraine, and just like we’ve likely goaded many countries into war?

Back in 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina to ban imports of US weapons to China, which were helping the Chinese in their fight against Japan. This eventually led to us freezing Japanese assets, which cut them off from the oil. Instead of selling weapons to China, what if we would’ve went to Japan and said, ok, we’ll stop doing that. What if we would’ve continued selling the Japanese oil? They would not have attacked Pearl Harbor and we would not have nuked them. Millions of Japanese would not have been killed.

Germany was angry because we kept sending war supplies to England. What if we didn’t do that? Would Germany have declared war on the US?

400,000 US military dead in WWII, and 675,000 wounded. I agree that after we were attacked by Japan and after Germany declared war, we absolutely should have destroyed them and we did.

But my problem with US WWII involvement is that it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

I think you can make a case that every single war the US has been involved in outside our own borders was due to a globalist agenda that has done nothing but destroy our country over time.

I think you can also make the case that the rich, elite industrialists turned to globalism to enrich and empower themselves even more, at the expense of the common man in the US.

Every war since WWII has fell into that category as well.

I’m also fully aware that I have been a part of this military globalism my entire adult life, as was my father and his father, my grandfather, who was part of a tank crew in the European theater during WWII and seen heavy combat.

When I first joined the military, I had no idea about any of this.

So now that I know what the US military is actually all about, and it’s not what we thought it was, I have reconciled it all. My eyes are fully open now, and we are really just an arm of Corporate American industry, operating globally to enhance American business interests abroad.

I’m ok with all of this now that I know what is really going on. The US military is just a chosen profession, not unlike a petroleum engineer who works for Exxon Mobile in one of their global offices abroad.
If you think that Japan and Germany would have left the US alone after taking over the rest of the world, you are sadly mistaken. The US would have been at war with those countries at some point, regardless of any actions we took to appease them. Fortress America has always been a convenient myth, and it is far better to defeat enemies on their soil instead of when they invade your soil.
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Old 11-16-2023, 12:10 PM
 
5,895 posts, read 3,163,779 times
Reputation: 10615
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRM20 View Post
If you think that Japan and Germany would have left the US alone after taking over the rest of the world, you are sadly mistaken. The US would have been at war with those countries at some point, regardless of any actions we took to appease them. Fortress America has always been a convenient myth, and it is far better to defeat enemies on their soil instead of when they invade your soil.
I don’t know that to be true and neither do you. That’s just speculation. There was a large population of Germans in the US. We might’ve stayed neutral on that front. Also, we don’t know definitively that England and the USSR would’ve fallen without our help.

As far as Japan, we don’t know if we could’ve had a mutual cooperation going forward or not. One thing is certain, we would not have had the wars in Korea or Vietnam if we hadn’t caused a vacuum in the region, and made the USSR strong by defeating Germany.

We made a huge amount of errors after WWII.

I’ve read where American companies, in the lead up to WWII, were making huge amount of profits selling war supplies. I think American companies became addicted to the global wealth and power they were accruing.

“Fortress America” isn’t a myth, we just gave up on it due to elite globalist greed. Not enough money or power to be earned by only ensuring American citizens a good life. Let’s project them around the world and make even more money.
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Old 11-16-2023, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
23,424 posts, read 13,660,350 times
Reputation: 18619
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan2013 View Post
I refuse to fight for this country, as it simply isn't worth fighting for. I have better things to do than to risk my life over something as stupid as "fighting cOmMuNiSm" (Vietnam War), oil (Gulf War), or semiconductors (if we were to go to war with China). The US hasn't fought for a worthy cause since World War II--every incursion the US has been involved in post-WWII has come through sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. I wish the US would mind its own business and focus on domestic issues, as this country isn't even remotely as attractive as it envisions itself to be.
Perhaps "White Lotus" by John Hersey should be required reading. In it, America lost the Yellow War, they marched into her town at night, gathered up the people, took them to the coast to sell them as slaves across the Pacific.

Or today so often on FB, memes of animals in cages dreaming of being free but in the end, reality returns and they are pets in cages. For what some say it should be like for animals, do they or others not realize that is what is being faced...............

.............if we don't fight to hold on to what we have? After all, where are they going to go once the USA is no longer a force in this world?

BUT, as said, I am an elder woman with not much time left in this world. It's a damn shame that for all the effort those of us of previous times put into the fight is just being tossed away......but C'est La Vie.

Finally, in the Vietnam War, one General had an answer for COs who said they would not fight but help such was with the wounded.................................Fine, there are some sandbags up on the DMZ that need filling. I agree with that approach. If one is truly a CO and does such, I would respect them for their commitment. If not.....to me, they are just yellow....no puns intended.
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