How are racial relations in rural MS? (Hattiesburg, Columbus: fit in, transplants)

[nep321]

I noticed that much of the southwestern section of MS is a majority black population, and whites are the minority. Most places in the rest of the U.S. are majority white, and blacks are the minority. Just curious how these racial relations are in rural MS. Do people tend to stick to their own race, with regard to making friends and doing social activities? What about church attendance? Are the churches integrated at all? Do black and white households coexist as in neighbors and neighborhoods? To what degree does any segregation exist?

I apologize if I come across as igorant, but I enjoy learning about your state, since it's so different from the average state.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by nep321

I noticed that much of the southwestern section of MS is a majority black population, and whites are the minority. Most places in the rest of the U.S. are majority white, and blacks are the minority. Just curious how these racial relations are in rural MS. Do people tend to stick to their own race, with regard to making friends and doing social activities? What about church attendance? Are the churches integrated at all? Do black and white households coexist as in neighbors and neighborhoods? To what degree does any segregation exist?

I apologize if I come across as igorant, but I enjoy learning about your state, since it's so different from the average state.

I guess this is progress.

Mississippi School Holds First Interracial Prom : NPR

[peppermint]

I grew up a few miles outside of Starkville. I went to school at MSU. When I left MS, I had no real plans to stay or to leave. Life swept me on its way. My family still lives in MS, in rural MS, and things haven't changed a whole lot since I left ten years ago.

The Delta area (Western MS) has, as far as I know, been mostly black for many, many years (maybe since slavery since I know there were plantations out there). It's poor out there. Someone more educated than I will have to explain the history. I will try to answer your other questions based solely on my experience, having been raised in rural north central MS.

Do people tend to stick to their own race, with regard to making friends and doing social activities?
Yes, people do tend to stick with their own race. I'm not 100% sure why this is so. However, it's not universal or an absolute rule. There are times when you see mixed races together, but it's not as common as in other places. To be fair, though, I think many people stick to what they are comfortable with - people, customs, food, church services, languages, etc. I struggle with the why and the question of whether MS is worse than, say, Chinatown or Koreatown (LA) or Mexicantown (Detroit). Is it inherently racist to stick to folks who understand you and your life experiences?

What about church attendance? Are the churches integrated at all?
Some churches are; most are not. This goes to the same issue as the first question. The standard Southern black church is VERY different from the standard Southern white church. I mean, they are worlds apart. I think a black person would be bored in a white church, and a white person would be overstimulated in a black church. They are just different.

Do black and white households coexist as in neighbors and neighborhoods?
Some. Some neighborhoods are 100% white or 100% black. Personally, I think this might have more to do with poverty and tradition (which, one might argue, stems from racism). There are virtually no black people living in the city limits of my parents' rural town. Some of the whites in town (like the horrible mayor) refuse to consider moving the city line out (for tax reasons) because it will expand into "black neighborhoods". That attitude is still around, I'm sorry to say. My parents have fought for city expansion because their town is dying and might have to dissolve. Some folks would rather see that than to have black people within the city limits. I really don't know how prevalent this attitude is. I'd love to think it's rare, but I'm not that naive.

To what degree does any segregation exist?
I think I might have answered this question. Let me know if I didn't.

Just some final thoughts: MS has come a long way since the 1963 murder of Medgar Evers, but I do think there is always room for improvement. Also, some parts of the state are more deeply rooted in tradition and historic ways of thinking than others. I have discovered, for example, through this forum, that people along the coast and around Hattiesburg are much more progressive than where I grew up. People sometimes ask me about how I grew up, and I tell them very seriously that it's like FOX News. The majority of the people I knew, who grew up with and around have the same thoughts, the same attitudes, and the same actions and behaviors as those found on FOX News. I do hope the majority of the state is not like that. Perhaps others will chime in on their experiences.

[DiogenesofJackson]

I thought peppermint had a really good post. The only few things I'll add are as follows: for information about the Delta and the way it is, I'd suggest reading a book by James Cobb called The Most Southern Place on Earth, which covers Delta area historical and economic development.

Why do people seem to gravitate toward others of the same race? That has to do with the staying power of race ideology in this country. We have been conditioned to be suspicious of people who are not the same. Moreover, race ideology has conditioned people to categorize other humans based on phenotypes such as hair texture and skin color. Race ideology is an allusion because it purports that there are more than one category of humans called "races." These categories are defined rather arbitrarily and the best historical example of this is the "one drop rule" that predominated in the southern states until relatively recently. The "one drop rule" means that anyone with one drop of "black blood" was indeed a black or "negro." I think today most people categorize one another based on mere skin color. People who have black and white parents and/or grandparents and who may not be easy to categorize generally confuse people. I've noticed when I lived in Mississippi that oftentimes folks obsessed over some one's race when it was not entirely clear. In other words, the arbitrary nature of what is considered to be a black person or a white person, etc. changes with each successive generation.

After living in Mississippi and working there in state government, I figured out rather quickly (and no pun intended) but race colors everything in the state. So in terms of rural race relations, I'd say that it's quite prevalent in the way people order their lives. I believe you'd be hard pressed NOT to find evidence of residential segregation in the state's rural towns and communities. I have relatives who live in Columbus in a neighborhood that in many ways resembles suburbia, except on a smaller scale. There are no black families who live in the same area. Likewise, in the part of town where most black live, you'd be hard to find any white families living there.

The attorney general's office, in the late 1990s, investigated a rural area in North Mississippi called New Site because it's school (k-12) was 100% white. Considering the racial breakdown of Prentiss County, this was rather odd. In the course of the investigation, we found that not one black family lived in or around New Site community. Yet in Booneville, the nearest town, the black population resembled the state's overall black population (around 35%). The only thing we concluded about New Site's segregation was that the communities majority whites simply would not tolerate any African Americans or Asian Americans moving into that area.

Mississippi has indeed come a long way since 1963, as has much of the rest of the nation. Yet race ideology is, I'd argue, the first thing on the minds of most Mississippians. I think the cause of this is due in part to white Mississippians' vigorous role in resisting civil rights reform from the early 1950s through the mid 1970s. In other words, it's called white guilt mixed with a longing among most whites for those bygone days of rigid racial segregation.

[Byhaliagreenhouse]

I'm from rural, mostly white, area of alabama, maybe 10 to 15% black. I went to high school during intergration of the 60's. I did not see it as a problem myself, went off in the Navy and actually dated interracially and suffered for it. I saw the INTELLIGENCE of the the person I was involved with. My white High school boyfriend actually has been married to a black lady for almost 40 years now...because of the INTELLIGENCE!
I now live in a 50/50 county in Mississippi and have my own business and NOW I see myself as being prejudcial because of LACK of intelligence! 90% of my black customers and 10% of my white customers have this annoying habit of coming to my business, look around, ask lots of dumb questions (I don't know the name of this flower but my neighbor has it, its purple) (that's like me saying "I'm looking for a man, he's light", light WHAT, black white, young old, tall short??) you MUST know enough to ask intelligent questions!!
and the other thing is, "I get my check (or occasionally, I get paid) on Friday, I'll be back then to get me one" WHY did you bother me TODAY! during the pouring rain or at 3 pm when its 105 degrees??!! or "let me get my money out of the car". I always have MY money in my pocket, not in the car. I don't go shopping unless I know what I'm going for...and I get it when I see it! and so do MOST of my white customers. I have developed a hesitation in going out to wait on a black customer because of all this and the "what you got for a dollar?" mentality.
NOW that being said....the old south rich white man is the CAUSE of this. Slave traders looked for the most docile, less intelligent easiest to control peoples they could find. Thank goodness that some warring tribes sent their captives over who were smarter. and able to learn and improve themselves. My high school sweethearts black wife is THE most intelligent female in the world, from Columbus, Ga orginally, worked in DC area for years. they have no children. and yet the dumb ones continue to propogate. EDUCATION is the key, but not the traditional routes. One must learn COMMON SENSE and that is not taught in schools.

[Delta-SSiPP]

Originally Posted by nep321

I noticed that much of the southwestern section of MS is a majority black population, and whites are the minority. Most places in the rest of the U.S. are majority white, and blacks are the minority. Just curious how these racial relations are in rural MS. Do people tend to stick to their own race, with regard to making friends and doing social activities? What about church attendance? Are the churches integrated at all? Do black and white households coexist as in neighbors and neighborhoods? To what degree does any segregation exist?

I apologize if I come across as igorant, but I enjoy learning about your state, since it's so different from the average state.

This is an interesting thread, you're not coming across ignorant, i understand where you coming from! Some people just seem content with the way things are!

[Listener2307]

One of the ways to understand Mississippi is through understanding that Mississippi doesn't grow, and hasn't for 100 years.
Sure, there are more people here than there were in 1900. In 1900 Mississippi boasted 1.5 million people, today we have 3 million. By contrast, the U.S. had a population of 76 million people in 1900 compared 300 million today.
That means that in 1900 2% of the population of the U.S. lived in Mississippi, as compared to only 1% today.
In the 1970's there was some survey work done to determine where people in Mississippi had lived and it was discovered that 70% of the population had never lived anywhere but in Mississippi.

Perusing the various threads on this forum will show a great many newly settled people frustrated with not fitting in, and maybe the above figures can help explain why. It would be hard for a newcomer to fit in and equally hard for an old hand to change an old attitude.

Last weekend I went to a couple's 50th wedding anniversary. In a small town of not more than 10,000 people, there must have been 1000 at the party. There were no older black folks, but there were plenty of younger black folks. And that is probably because the older couple simply didn't know any black folks. See, in 1962 we didn't know each other, even if we lived in the same town. But now all the white kids and black kids know each other and socialize together.
In northern and western states that's not true. Black folks and white folks have always known each other; went to school together; played together.

That familiarity makes all the difference in the world. And the lack of immigrants from other states makes a difference, too, because people will bring new attitudes with them as surely as they will bring family albums.

For the most part there is no growth in sight for Mississippi. The few transplants picked up in one place will be offset by those leaving someplace else.

[ckhthankgod]

My father is originally from Tchula in Holmes County. It is 95% Black and it looks like a place that time has forgotten about. When my dad grew up there in the 50's and 60's, he said that there was a store owned by a Chinese family and another store owned by a Jewish family. I believe that the Chinese kids actually went to the White school or may have been taught at home. My dad isn't too sure about this. His family lived on land owned by a politician and he and his brother actually played with the politician's son. I asked him about where they would sit when going to the movies and this friend would sit on the lower level, while my dad and his brother would sit in the balcony. There was another thing where it wasn't uncommon for White land owners to show "favoritism" to certain Black females. So, whenever there was interaction, it was "interesting".

I went there about 20 years ago when I was still in high school and I couldn't believe how serious the poverty was there. You almost wouldn't believe that there are towns in the United States like this. Here is a pretty recent video of the town now:
Economic meltdown in Mississippi - 10 July 08 - YouTube

There are supposedly parts of the town that have been improved with new housing, according to an aunt that has visited in recent years. I guess I still have family there, but most of the family lives in the Syracuse, Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis areas.

This is a contrast to the town in SC that my mom comes from, but that area is still pretty poor as well. It is a little bit more integrated though.

[DiogenesofJackson]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

My father is originally from Tchula in Holmes County. It is 95% Black and it looks like a place that time has forgotten about. When my dad grew up there in the 50's and 60's, he said that there was a store owned by a Chinese family and another store owned by a Jewish family. I believe that the Chinese kids actually went to the White school or may have been taught at home. My dad isn't too sure about this. His family lived on land owned by a politician and he and his brother actually played with the politician's son. I asked him about where they would sit when going to the movies and this friend would sit on the lower level, while my dad and his brother would sit in the balcony. There was another thing where it wasn't uncommon for White land owners to show "favoritism" to certain Black females. So, whenever there was interaction, it was "interesting".

I went there about 20 years ago when I was still in high school and I couldn't believe how serious the poverty was there. You almost wouldn't believe that there are towns in the United States like this. Here is a pretty recent video of the town now:
Economic meltdown in Mississippi - 10 July 08 - YouTube

There are supposedly parts of the town that have been improved with new housing, according to an aunt that has visited in recent years. I guess I still have family there, but most of the family lives in the Syracuse, Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis areas.

This is a contrast to the town in SC that my mom comes from, but that area is still pretty poor as well. It is a little bit more integrated though.

Yes, the Chinese in the Miss. Delta are indeed an interesting case study in rural race relations. The Chinese, not white and not black (according to the prevailing race ideology) were a people between white and black. Consequently the state's segregation laws only mandated schools for whites and separate schools for blacks. So where did the estimated 1000 or so Delta Chinese attend school?

The answer depends on at what time period are we talking about and in what county because there were no uniform rules on it. The most famous case was the daughter of Gong Lum, whose child attended the local white elementary school. I might have the order of events out of place, but he sued for his daughter's right to attend the white school because after all she wasn't defined, legally that is, as black and should not be forced to travel to another county to attend the only nearby black school. She was indeed enrolled at I believe the Rosedale, MS local school. Until one day when the state department of education got wind of a Chinese student attending a white school. They ordered her removal and Gong Lum sued again, this time reaching the Miss. Supreme Court, which agreed with the local district's exclusion of Lum's daughter, Martha.

Lum appealed and it reached the Supreme Court in the 1920s, which determined that it could not reverse the state supreme court's decision.

Regardless of the outcome of the case, many Delta whites who controlled neighboring school districts were shocked that an Asian child had to attend black schools (which were hardly schools by today's standards). In the decades after Lum v. Rice and in the decades leading up to Holmes v. Alexander that secured integrated education in Mississippi, numerous Delta school districts either excluded Chinese Americans from their schools or allowed their attendance. For the ones that allowed them to attend, these districts usually had long traditions of local control of education and rebuffed the state department of education meddling in their local affairs.

Moreover, adult Chinese Deltans also moved between the worlds of black and white during the twentieth century, oftentimes serving both communities as grocery store owners where they provided needed goods that served the agricultural workers, both white and black, who frequented their stores.

The Delta Chinese are interesting indeed and more information is available from James W. Loewen's book about this very topic.

[Listener2307]

My sister is Chinese. We attended school together until she graduated from high school in 1962. Then she went on to Auburn University, which was segregated.