Flag trouble stirs again. (Vicksburg, Oxford: employment, buy, camps)

[Desert kid]

Originally Posted by jhadorn

I have no problem with tearing down confederate civil war monuments, as long as the union monuments are torn down as well. It WAS a divisive war. If the Sons of Confederate Veterans can't stay, let's get rid of the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War. If Nathan Bedford Forrest has to be dug up and moved, lets get rid of "The Victorious Charge" in Milwaukee. The inscription reads "To Those Who Fought in the War for the Union 1861 - 1865. Erected 1898".

OR

We could stop being so sissified and sensitive and go on with life. Either one is fine with me.

I vote we stop being sissies.

However, I can't help but whistle a little Battle Hymn while going to the Illinois Monument at Vicksburg.

http://illinoisstatesoceity.typepad..../vicksburg.jpg

And having visited Forrest's grave too, if you ever read Faulkner, he has Forrest play a sort of haunting, spiritual role in the development and reality of life in Northwest Mississippi in the century after the war.

[Ivory Lee Spurlock]

Originally Posted by jhadorn

Slavery was present in all 13 original colonies. The civil war was not fought because of the moral compass of Northerners and their desire to treat black people as humans, however, it was fought at least partially because of slavery.

The climate of the South allowed for the use of slaves to a much greater extent, allowing the South to economically eclipse the North. The civil war was fought because of economics. The North could not allow the South to hold all the power.

I know, all of this is lost on you because it isn't what you were taught, but it's true. I have only scratched the surface. Visit Slavery in the North to learn about the history of slavery in the north. It isn't southern conjecture. It has credible sources such as Oxford University Press, American Historical Association, Johns Hopkins University Press, and many more.

You don't justify your states bad behavior by pointing the bad behavior of other states.

There are people in the South who are still fighting the Civil War, just like there are people in Japan still fighting World War Two.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by Ivory Lee Spurlock

You don't justify your states bad behavior by pointing the bad behavior of other states.

There are people in the South who are still fighting the Civil War, just like there are people in Japan still fighting World War Two.

There is no one in the south fighting the Civil War. No one "hates Yankees" and "wants to kill them". No one "promotes the idea of slavery".

The Civil War should be remembered because it did not need to happen. The south tried to leave the union, not invade it. And it tried to do so during a peaceful period when the United States was not otherwise threatened.
The south has nothing to be ashamed of. It was, after all, the south who was invaded, and the south who was destroyed.
The whole thing was not worth the 650,000 lives it cost. Slavery would have ended in due time and, as in Great Britain, slaves would probably have been gradually been integrated into society. Instead, people who had never known a day's freedom in their entire lives were tossed into the freshly destroyed countryside to fend for themselves. The results were disastrous for everyone.

It didn't have to happen, and should be remembered as a lesson for all future leaders and politicians.
Bad behavior? Invading a country and burning its crops and homes and killing its citizens while losing hundreds of thousands of your own people - THAT'S bad behavior.
Put in that context, I can certainly understand why northern states want the flag to be hidden.

[Jardine8]

Listener, in some ways, while you have a point, I shudder to think what would happen if the Confederate States of America were allowed to peacefully secede and to build their own nation. It is quite possible that we would still be living in a Jim Crow society today in Mississippi. Not a positive thing in the least. I would like to believe that we as Southernors would be better than that and would have changed just as the United States as a whole changed but I just don't know that it is true.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by Jardine8

Listener, in some ways, while you have a point, I shudder to think what would happen if the Confederate States of America were allowed to peacefully secede and to build their own nation. It is quite possible that we would still be living in a Jim Crow society today in Mississippi. Not a positive thing in the least. I would like to believe that we as Southernors would be better than that and would have changed just as the United States as a whole changed but I just don't know that it is true.

And who would do business with such a country? No, I think the pressure was on, and would have won out. Importing slaves was already illegal, and Portugal - the last in Europe - had only abandoned slavery in 1836.

There's another thing: The Fugitive Slave Act required the return of escaped slaves. Secession nullified that law. So then, any escaped slave was simply in another country. Gone. And that is yet another pressure on the south, to be added to the pressure they were getting from Europe.

Did America (if we can include The West) abandon the slavery they like to believe existed only in the Confederacy? Well, no, they didn't. In fact, they allowed territories and states in the west to use the Chinese in any way they wished.
In Sep 1897, Charles Frederick Holder wrote about the plight of the Chinese as slaves and quotes the price to be paid for a Chinese girl. California became a state in 1850.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/25118876...n_tab_contents

Until the full story is taught and understood, and America owns up to its part in the mistreatment of ex-slaves everywhere, the Confederate Flag should fly. And every time the federal government over-reaches, as it does with education, that battle flag should be waved in their faces.
Because we can.
Our Constitution guarantees it.

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by Jardine8

Listener, in some ways, while you have a point, I shudder to think what would happen if the Confederate States of America were allowed to peacefully secede and to build their own nation. It is quite possible that we would still be living in a Jim Crow society today in Mississippi. Not a positive thing in the least. I would like to believe that we as Southernors would be better than that and would have changed just as the United States as a whole changed but I just don't know that it is true.

You know there's a movie on Netflix based on the south winning the war? It's a mockumentary called CSA: The Confederate States of America. Not Oscar worthy, but quite interesting.

Here's a hint: slavery ends, but Jim Crow reigns supreme...

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by Listener2307

And who would do business with such a country? No, I think the pressure was on, and would have won out. Importing slaves was already illegal, and Portugal - the last in Europe - had only abandoned slavery in 1836.

Do you not understand the difference between slavery and Jim Crow? South Africa had Jim Crow as policy, and that policy existed for decades and it did not hinder most countries from doing business with them until the 1970s and 80s. We can assume that if the south had left the union in 1861, Jim Crow would have been the law of the land for at least a century.

[Listener2307]

Originally Posted by JacksonPanther

Do you not understand the difference between slavery and Jim Crow? South Africa had Jim Crow as policy, and that policy existed for decades and it did not hinder most countries from doing business with them until the 1970s and 80s. We can assume that if the south had left the union in 1861, Jim Crow would have been the law of the land for at least a century.

Jim Crow was the law of the land, anyway. So nothing would have changed by your scenario.

EXCEPT THAT....

The South would still have been a fully functioning country with jobs and an economy. Something that did not occur from 1865 onward through reconstruction.

Jim Crow laws were passed because The South did not properly integrate the slaves once they were freed. If slavery had run its course and died in The Confederacy the same way it died in every other major country, then the slaves would have been properly integrated into society, just like they were is all other countries (with a nod to your mentioned exception of South Africa)

In England, for example, slave owners were compensated, and former slaves over the age of 6 were accepted into apprenticeships.
In The South, 3.5 million slaves were released virtually in one day into a country of 5.5 million non slaves. It was a stupid move, the ramifications are still felt today, and it needs to be talked about.

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of government over-reach and ineptitude. The South was forced to swear allegiance to The United States Constitution, and that document gives us the right to express ourselves.
I think we should do it by flying the flag that should embarrass them. That way, maybe some future national leader will see it, hear our message, and apply it to some future situation.

[jhadorn]

Originally Posted by JacksonPanther

You know there's a movie on Netflix based on the south winning the war? It's a mockumentary called CSA: The Confederate States of America. Not Oscar worthy, but quite interesting.

Here's a hint: slavery ends, but Jim Crow reigns supreme...

You realize that is a movie, right? The south didn't win, therefore the events in the movie did not happen...

I'm sure you also realize that Jim Crow laws existed in 35 states.

[Desert kid]

Originally Posted by jhadorn

You realize that is a movie, right? The south didn't win, therefore the events in the movie did not happen...

I'm sure you also realize that Jim Crow laws existed in 35 states.

Phoenix was a heavily segregated city way back when.